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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1178
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 541 of 607 (882427)
09-23-2020 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 540 by Hyroglyphx
09-23-2020 11:09 AM


Re: Jacob Blake handcuffed to his hospital bed ???
There was a prisoner a few years ago who was in custody at the Travis County Jail who threw himself down some stairs and faked as if he was paralyzed. Fooled everyone. The jail nurses, doctors, deputies

And how the precise fuck do you fake being shot in the back seven fucking times by a police officer ? I don't know about you, but if I'd been shot in the back seven times, I think it's safe to say that an inability to leap gazelle-like off a gurney would be unlikely to be something that I invented.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-23-2020 11:09 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 543 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-23-2020 11:38 AM vimesey has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 542 of 607 (882428)
09-23-2020 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 538 by Percy
09-14-2020 5:41 PM


Re: Marquez Shooting Deliberation
You're not even bothering to defend your claim. You're just making up more stuff.

Accusing me of the very thing that you are doing. Percy, the video has been released. Beyond a shadow of a doubt the police are justified. Marquez clearly pulls out what she wanted the officers to believe was a gun in protest of being placed under an emergency detention order for her own safety. The officers even retreated all the way downstairs in an effort to de-escalate the situation. Marquez then deliberately follows them and points the weapon.

You read an article and, as usual, made a rush to judgement and deliberated that the police must have just executed poor 'ole Marquez for no good reason whatsoever, to which I replied that I am going to reserve judgement until the facts of the case materialize. Those facts then come out, with VIDEOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE, contradicting your assertions, and instead of conceding you dig your heels in deeper which just makes you look petulant and unreasonable.

How can we have honest discussions when you can't even admit when you are wrong? How many concessions have I made over the years? Have some integrity, please.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 538 by Percy, posted 09-14-2020 5:41 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by Percy, posted 09-28-2020 2:23 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 543 of 607 (882429)
09-23-2020 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 541 by vimesey
09-23-2020 11:23 AM


Re: Jacob Blake handcuffed to his hospital bed ???
And how the precise fuck do you fake being shot in the back seven fucking times by a police officer ? I don't know about you, but if I'd been shot in the back seven times, I think it's safe to say that an inability to leap gazelle-like off a gurney would be unlikely to be something that I invented.

Believe it or not you can be shot and not be paralyzed. As I said, they aren't doctors and can't know whether or not somebody, who is in custody by the way, is or is not paralyzed. What exactly are you taking exception to when it comes to handcuffing a prisoner to a gurney?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Lets suppose Blake wasn't paralyzed and grabs an object inside the room and again attacks the officers. Then they have to use additional force. And then people like you would piss and moan about how this wouldn't have happened if only those irresponsible keystone cops had handcuffed him! You can't win against people who are only motivated with driving a narrative; damn the facts.

Answer the question: What is so odious about handcuffing a prisoner to a gurney, whether he is paralyzed or not?

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by vimesey, posted 09-23-2020 11:23 AM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by vimesey, posted 09-23-2020 11:18 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 544 of 607 (882433)
09-23-2020 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Hyroglyphx
09-23-2020 11:09 AM


Re: Jacob Blake handcuffed to his hospital bed ???
Hyroglyphx writes:

Are the police doctors?


In Canada we have recently had a couple of cases in which people were killed by police during "wellness checks".

Can the police tell the difference between "well" and "dead"?

If not, maybe it should be added to their training.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-23-2020 11:09 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 545 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-23-2020 1:45 PM ringo has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 545 of 607 (882438)
09-23-2020 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by ringo
09-23-2020 12:29 PM


Re: Jacob Blake handcuffed to his hospital bed ???
In Canada we have recently had a couple of cases in which people were killed by police during "wellness checks".
Can the police tell the difference between "well" and "dead"?

If not, maybe it should be added to their training.

The people responding to lethal force with lethal force is part of their training in addition to helping people experiencing a mental health crisis which happens thousands of times a day that goes exactly as planned -- no one injured and the people in crisis getting the help that they need. But those aren't deemed newsworthy so you never hear about it.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by ringo, posted 09-23-2020 12:29 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by ringo, posted 09-24-2020 12:18 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1178
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 546 of 607 (882450)
09-23-2020 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by Hyroglyphx
09-23-2020 11:38 AM


Re: Jacob Blake handcuffed to his hospital bed ???
You are not covering yourself in glory here Hyro. You’re arguing that a man who has just been shot seven times in the back at close range is potentially capable of running off or assaulting people. That is not the argument of a sane person.

You say that cops aren’t doctors (although it does not take a medical degree, or anything much above 2 IQ points to work out the above, but there you go) - if only they’d been in, oh I don’t know, a hospital and been able to find a doctor to ask...

The police have duties not just to the rest of the public, but also to the people they arrest. See if you can guess why.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-23-2020 11:38 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 547 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-23-2020 11:38 PM vimesey has responded
 Message 549 by Phat, posted 09-24-2020 10:22 AM vimesey has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 547 of 607 (882451)
09-23-2020 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 546 by vimesey
09-23-2020 11:18 PM


Re: Jacob Blake handcuffed to his hospital bed ???
You are not covering yourself in glory here Hyro. You’re arguing that a man who has just been shot seven times in the back at close range is potentially capable of running off or assaulting people. That is not the argument of a sane person. You say that cops aren’t doctors (although it does not take a medical degree, or anything much above 2 IQ points to work out the above, but there you go) - if only they’d been in, oh I don’t know, a hospital and been able to find a doctor to ask...

A couple of things to unpack.... you seem to disagree with the shooting itself so if you'd care to discuss those details I'd be more than happy to. Secondly, you still have not answered the question why it is so odious to handcuff your prisoner to a gurney, whether he is paralyzed or not. Three times is a charm... lets have, mate.

The police have duties not just to the rest of the public, but also to the people they arrest. See if you can guess why.

Agreed. But what does that have to do with the current discussion?


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by vimesey, posted 09-23-2020 11:18 PM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by vimesey, posted 09-24-2020 1:28 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1178
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 548 of 607 (882452)
09-24-2020 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 547 by Hyroglyphx
09-23-2020 11:38 PM


Re: Jacob Blake handcuffed to his hospital bed ???
why it is so odious to handcuff your prisoner to a gurney, whether he is paralyzed or not. Three times is a charm... lets have, mate.

If it has to be explained why handcuffing people is odious in a free society (as opposed to the police state you seem to favour heading towards), then there is little hope for you.

Sometimes handcuffing is a proportionate and sensible thing to do - even though it is odious - but in every circumstance in which the police have to take that decision, it’s about balancing the rights of the individual they’re arresting (and do let’s remember, that individual is innocent until proven guilty) against any dangers they may represent. That would be why it’s horrendous to have cuffed Jacob Blake to his gurney. A man (and again, let’s remember that an individual is innocent until proven guilty) who has been shot seven times in the back poses as much danger to the public as a kitten. You don’t cuff him, because it’s not a nice thing to do to someone, and the circumstances here don’t justify it. Balance Hyro - it’s all about balance. The police owe duties to those they arrest too, and have to balance them with their other duties.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-23-2020 11:38 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-24-2020 11:28 AM vimesey has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14677
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 549 of 607 (882462)
09-24-2020 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 546 by vimesey
09-23-2020 11:18 PM


Judgement Calls
Interesting exchange between you and Hyro. Here is my 2 cents.

  • Anyone of us can be a Monday Morning Quarterback. The police are responsible for what they do. It is fair to question why the guy was even shot 7 times, but that is a judgement call made by the officers who responded.

    As for handcuffing him to the gurney, is it possible that he was thrashing around (or could have tried) and may end up paralyzing himself for life in so doing?

    Perhaps handcuffing Blake to the gurney was for his own safety and not done as an overreaction of his perceived threat towards others...but mainly himself?


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 546 by vimesey, posted 09-23-2020 11:18 PM vimesey has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 550 by vimesey, posted 09-24-2020 11:21 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 552 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-24-2020 12:10 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    vimesey
    Member
    Posts: 1178
    From: Birmingham, England
    Joined: 09-21-2011
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 550 of 607 (882466)
    09-24-2020 11:21 AM
    Reply to: Message 549 by Phat
    09-24-2020 10:22 AM


    Re: Judgement Calls
    As for handcuffing him to the gurney, is it possible that he was thrashing around (or could have tried) and may end up paralyzing himself for life in so doing?

    I don't know about you Phat, but if it was me who'd been shot 7 times in the back, I'd rather have decisions taken about my medical welfare by qualified doctors. Call me picky like that.


    Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 549 by Phat, posted 09-24-2020 10:22 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Hyroglyphx
    Inactive Member


    Message 551 of 607 (882468)
    09-24-2020 11:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 548 by vimesey
    09-24-2020 1:28 AM


    Re: Jacob Blake handcuffed to his hospital bed ???
    If it has to be explained why handcuffing people is odious in a free society (as opposed to the police state you seem to favour heading towards), then there is little hope for you.

    I see you've gone full Woketard which means there is absolutely no hope for you. We are the absolute furthest away from a "police state" the West has ever been. Its literally the exact opposite where lawlessness and chaos rules the day.

    Sometimes handcuffing is a proportionate and sensible thing to do - even though it is odious - but in every circumstance in which the police have to take that decision, it’s about balancing the rights of the individual they’re arresting (and do let’s remember, that individual is innocent until proven guilty) against any dangers they may represent.

    Handcuffing a prisoner in a hospital where he is being treated for his injuries is the precise balance you speak of. If a prisoner would be denied access to healthcare -- that would be outrageous. There is nothing, whatsoever, outrageous about handcuffing a prisoner. Nothing. As to your plaintiff cries about innocence until proven guilty, as if to insinuate that the police only deal with malicious intent, do try to remember how the law functions.

    Jacob Blake is being held on PROBABLE CAUSE; his guilt or innocence has yet to be determined. A judge signed a warrant for his arrest, which is an order from a judge who found probable cause. Without probable cause there is no starting point to convict or exonerate anyone for any crime.

    That would be why it’s horrendous to have cuffed Jacob Blake to his gurney.

    You literally explained nothing whatsoever about how appalling it is to handcuff Jacob Blake to a gurney.

    A man (and again, let’s remember that an individual is innocent until proven guilty) who has been shot seven times in the back poses as much danger to the public as a kitten. You don’t cuff him, because it’s not a nice thing to do to someone, and the circumstances here don’t justify it. Balance Hyro - it’s all about balance. The police owe duties to those they arrest too, and have to balance them with their other duties.

    "Not a nice thing to do." Interesting. Your metric is completely fucked! Was it nice to fight the police while defending a victim -- a victim who is a minor -- a minor victim who is female -- a minor victim who is a black female? Was it nice to have stolen his ex-girlfriend's car, which was why the police were there to begin with? Was it nice to have finger blasted a little fucking girl? All that is "nice" but handcuffing him is "not nice." Handcuffing, Vimesey.... Where is your balance? Where is your perspective?

    You are not a rational person. You are gulping the Kool-Aid by the gallon, not merely drinking it. You're gonna get the society you've asked for... but we'll see if you want what you are going to get in the long run.

    All you see is white cops, black man, shot.... Those are the only informed facts you are operating from and from that, alone, you and all the other mindless cultists make wild, leaping assumptions.

    How to Be a Woke White Person

    Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


    "Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 548 by vimesey, posted 09-24-2020 1:28 AM vimesey has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 557 by vimesey, posted 09-24-2020 2:53 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
     Message 578 by Percy, posted 09-28-2020 2:38 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

      
    Hyroglyphx
    Inactive Member


    Message 552 of 607 (882469)
    09-24-2020 12:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 549 by Phat
    09-24-2020 10:22 AM


    Re: Judgement Calls
    Anyone of us can be a Monday Morning Quarterback. The police are responsible for what they do. It is fair to question why the guy was even shot 7 times, but that is a judgement call made by the officers who responded.

    What people seem to forget is that an entire exchange occurred that was not recorded by cellphone. Police were called because Blake was reportedly at the residence of a minor he was alleged to have sexually assaulted. The police show up. They run a check on the name and he has a warrant for his arrest for molesting a minor. That's an order from a judge. Police have ZERO discretion when it comes to a felony warrant. He also has an emergency protective order (EPO) placed against him by the alleged victim.

    So they tell him he is under arrest for the warrant and violating the conditions of the EPO. Jacob Blake fights the police. He is wrestled to the ground but gets up. They attempted to Taze him with no effect. They then draw down on him with guns as he is now disregarding the orders to stay away from the vehicle. One of the cops even grabs his shirt to try to get him away from the vehicle.

    I don't know about you, but it looks like they put in a lot of effort NOT to shoot him. Oh, but heavens no could we ever dare to place even a little bit of blame on the Jacob Blake. That would totally go against his martyrdom.

    Jacob then dives into the vehicle head first, as if to lunge for something inside the car. Nobody getting into their vehicle to drive dives head first. They fire at him. And if you can't understand why, this is why:

    Embed function not working.... ***Warning - Video of Homicide***

    Bodycam Video Shows Shooting of Two Tulsa Police Officers

    Video of near-fatal traffic stop released

    to the incredulousness of being shot 7 times, as opposed to 1 time, or however many times that seem reasonable to people who know nothing about ballistics, you fire until the threat stops. Why? Because unlike how it is depicted in the movies with people flying in the air, real people getting shot don't behave like that. People who are shot are quite capable of still fighting and quite capable of still killing the officer

    Police bodycam video shows knife-wielding man charge and attacks officer after being shot

    Perhaps handcuffing Blake to the gurney was for his own safety and not done as an overreaction of his perceived threat towards others...but mainly himself?

    Its protocol; its policy. The officer's don't have a choice. I can't tell you how many times a suspect is taken to the hospital after a response to resistance. The suspect seems a lot calmer and is sleeping much of the time. The officer then uncuffs him thinking he won't be a threat any more. The longer the suspect sits there the more he thinks about spending hours, days, weeks, or months behind bars. So he tries to flee and a secondary response to resistance occurs.... Guess whose fault that is? The fucking cops fault! Because he was irresponsible. His actions directly contributed to the suspect again being needlessly injured and he potentially jeopardized his own safety and that of hospital staff and patients.

    What great travesty is it that Jacob Blake is simply handcuffed to the gurney? Oh, but the stakes are a lot higher if he is uncuffed, aren't they? Yeah.... that's why it is NOT unreasonable to handcuff a prisoner.

    Facts. Logic. Reality. These are anathema to todays little woke warriors who use things like this to deconstruct society. They could give a fuck about Jacob Blake. Jacob Blake is a figurehead to usher in the revolution.

    Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


    "Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 549 by Phat, posted 09-24-2020 10:22 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18801
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.2


    (1)
    Message 553 of 607 (882470)
    09-24-2020 12:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 545 by Hyroglyphx
    09-23-2020 1:45 PM


    Re: Jacob Blake handcuffed to his hospital bed ???
    Hyroglyphx writes:

    But those aren't deemed newsworthy so you never hear about it.


    That's a good excuse for anything that goes wrong.

    It's also the excuse for doing nothing about it: As longs as thousands of people DON'T get shot by the police, everything is fine.


    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 545 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-23-2020 1:45 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 554 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-24-2020 12:31 PM ringo has responded

      
    Hyroglyphx
    Inactive Member


    Message 554 of 607 (882472)
    09-24-2020 12:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 553 by ringo
    09-24-2020 12:18 PM


    Re: Jacob Blake handcuffed to his hospital bed ???
    That's a good excuse for anything that goes wrong.
    It's also the excuse for doing nothing about it: As longs as thousands of people DON'T get shot by the police, everything is fine.

    Or it helps keep things in perspective.


    "Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 553 by ringo, posted 09-24-2020 12:18 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 555 by ringo, posted 09-24-2020 12:44 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18801
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 555 of 607 (882475)
    09-24-2020 12:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 554 by Hyroglyphx
    09-24-2020 12:31 PM


    Re: Jacob Blake handcuffed to his hospital bed ???
    Hyroglyphx writes:

    Or it helps keep things in perspective.


    From my perspective, a gun is not effective for testing wellness.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 554 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-24-2020 12:31 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 556 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-24-2020 1:16 PM ringo has responded

      
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