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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Percy
Member
Posts: 20050
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 646 of 658 (885643)
04-21-2021 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 644 by Phat
04-21-2021 6:40 AM


Re: Life After Chauvin Conviction: Same Story
They could take baby steps on the way to taking away the guns, maybe smaller caliber weapons or rubber bullets.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by Phat, posted 04-21-2021 6:40 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5814
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 647 of 658 (885644)
04-21-2021 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 643 by Tangle
04-21-2021 3:29 AM


Ideally and legally he shouldn't have said anything.

Ideally, I agree with. Legal is another matter.

A basic tenet of this nation is free speech, even for a president.

I know of no legal bar to a sitting president expressing an opinion on anything.

I also disagree with the characterization of his call as an attempt to influence the outcome of the trial. The press would be having a Tumpian field day lambasting him unmercifully.

but, there appears no harm done

How do you know?

This is America. If Biden's "intervention" had influenced anything in the trial at all the defense team and the press would crucify his butt. Fox and OAN are still out there.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 643 by Tangle, posted 04-21-2021 3:29 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 648 by Tangle, posted 04-21-2021 10:55 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8119
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 648 of 658 (885645)
04-21-2021 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 647 by AZPaul3
04-21-2021 10:32 AM


AZP writes:

This is America. If Biden's "intervention" had influenced anything in the trial at all the defense team and the press would crucify his butt. Fox and OAN are still out there.

It was a really, really stupid thing to do. If it had been Trump, there would be outrage. As it is he's created this kind of opportunity

"Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) said Tuesday that President Biden's comments on the trial of Derek Chauvin, a former Minneapolis police officer charged with the death of George Floyd last year, could lead to a mistrial in the case.

The Texas senator's remarks came after Biden commented on the trial during questions he fielded in the Oval Office earlier Tuesday. "

Cruz: Biden comments on Chauvin verdict 'grounds for a mistrial'


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 647 by AZPaul3, posted 04-21-2021 10:32 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 649 by AZPaul3, posted 04-21-2021 11:10 AM Tangle has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5814
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 649 of 658 (885646)
04-21-2021 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 648 by Tangle
04-21-2021 10:55 AM


Ted Cruz the insurrectionist? Really. You know he's a political opportunist with an axe to grind, right? Of course he, and others, would try to lambaste the president for anything.

The point is, Tangle, Biden's comments meant nothing and this society, right now, doesn't care what the right-wing demagogues have to say about it.

George Floyd: As Chauvin jury deliberates, Biden calls case 'overwhelming'

quote:
The judge called her comments "abhorrent" and "disrespectful to the rule of law and to the judicial branch" and told Chauvin's attorney that Ms Waters "may have given you something on appeal that may result in this whole trial being overturned."

Still, two defense attorneys in Minnesota said they consider a successful appeal over remarks like Ms Waters' or Mr Biden's extremely unlikely.

"Anybody who thinks undue publicity is going to get a case reversed in this day and age is just wrong," said Joe Friedberg, who is unconnected to the case.

"Just from a pragmatic standpoint, with social media, I don't think it can ever be done again."

Brock Hunter, past president of the Minnesota Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, said a successful appeal would be unlikely unless there were direct evidence that Ms Waters' statements affected jurors.


There is nothing there that anyone, other than the obvious political axe-grinding, cares about.

An appeal for undue influence should be filed only because that is what a competent defense attorney would have to try regardless of the facts. I wouldn't expect such an appeal to succeed.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by Tangle, posted 04-21-2021 10:55 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 650 by Tangle, posted 04-21-2021 12:46 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8119
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 650 of 658 (885647)
04-21-2021 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by AZPaul3
04-21-2021 11:10 AM


AZP writes:

Ted Cruz the insurrectionist? Really. You know he's a political opportunist with an axe to grind, right? Of course he, and others, would try to lambaste the president for anything.

Of course I know that - Biden gave him the ammunition to promote the mistrial angle.

The point is, Tangle, Biden's comments meant nothing and this society, right now, doesn't care what the right-wing demagogues have to say about it.

He should know better than to make those kinds of statements at any time during a trial. If the defence now calls for a retrial it'll become an even more politicised action. I really can't believe he said that at that point, the separation of politics from jurisprudence is a core part of all our democracies.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 649 by AZPaul3, posted 04-21-2021 11:10 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 651 by AZPaul3, posted 04-21-2021 12:51 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5814
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 651 of 658 (885648)
04-21-2021 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 650 by Tangle
04-21-2021 12:46 PM


I really can't believe he said that at that point, the separation of politics from jurisprudence is a core part of all our democracies.

Agreed. Biden did NOT cross that line. His comments were well after sequestration and the angst felt over his actions is political theater of no consequence.

The example of Rep.Waters is a good case in point.

House Democrats Defeat G.O.P. Attempt to Censure Maxine Waters

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 650 by Tangle, posted 04-21-2021 12:46 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20050
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 652 of 658 (885670)
04-22-2021 5:55 AM


Yet Another Police Murder
Yesterday Andrew Brown was shot and killed in Elizabeth City, North Carolina, as he drove away from a sheriff's deputy serving a search warrant. (Black man shot and killed by sheriff’s deputy in North Carolina)

The circumstances are very similar to Daunte Wright's, whose murderer, Kim Potter, has been formally charged in court with second-degree manslaughter. Hopefully the deputy and any others who fired shots will be arrested under similar charges.

Elizabeth City will eventually pay Andrew Brown's family a multi-million dollar settlement. One wonders why the financial pressures of making insurance payments don't cause municipalities to pressure their police departments to avoid unnecessary violence. There are no reports that Andrew Brown had a gun, but he did have a history of drug charges.

Only the most elite of police forces should have the means and the right to make a determination that an on-the-spot capital execution is necessary. It's way past time to get the guns out of the hands of the yahoos.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 653 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 11:24 AM Percy has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4558
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 653 of 658 (885675)
04-22-2021 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 652 by Percy
04-22-2021 5:55 AM


Re: Yet Another Police Murder
When we examine these cases, we can see some wiggle room.

Daunte Wright was not constrained, but rather had escaped constrainment and was attempting to escape as we can clearly see from the video. That is still no excuse for an experienced policewoman to confuse her sidearm for a taser.

That kid in Chicago. I have only seen once the surveillance video which shows him tossing the weapon on the other side of the fence (where police did find a firearm). The kid was too stupid in that he turned around too quickly after the police officer had seen him with that firearm in his hand. Rather, he should have first raised his empty hands to show that he was holding nothing before he turned around.

My son is a cop (not currently on the job). They are trained to have a very definite mentality of needing to take total control of the situation (without that, people die) and they know that any traffic stop could turn very fatal for them.

The downside of that is over-reaction by cops or bad cops using that as an excuse.

I realize that these excesses are wrong, but I also try to put myself in the place of the cops involved.

My son once mentioned that he had been trained to keep his back to the wall in restaurants in order to assess the entire situation in the room. Did anyone notice in that controversial final scene of The Sopranos that Tony was sitting where he could watch everybody entering that restaurant? When Marlo Thomas (actress daughter of Danny Thomas, the entertainer who founded St. Jude's, the only major charity I contribute to, which Marlo was promoting) was on the Dean Obeidallah show, they shared stories of their shared mixed ethnicity (Marlo: Lebanese father, Italian mother; Dean: Palestinian father, Sicilian mother). Dean talked about his Sicilian grandmother who always sat facing the restaurant's entrance, because not having done that is what led to her husband's death.

There are two sides to every story, but, yes, there needs to be police reform.

Edited by dwise1, : added modifiers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 652 by Percy, posted 04-22-2021 5:55 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 654 by Percy, posted 04-23-2021 9:58 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20050
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 654 of 658 (885706)
04-23-2021 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 653 by dwise1
04-22-2021 11:24 AM


Re: Yet Another Police Murder
We are so far apart. Neither Daunte Wright nor Andrew Brown nor Adam Toledo ("that kid in Chicago") nor Ma’Khia Bryant nor (how many pages of names are needed) committed anything near a capital crime nor did anything close to deserving death. Your characterization of Adam Toledo's murder as a justified killing because he improperly choreographed how he moved ("too stupid" was your description of this 13-year-old) is just a further indictment of police actions and attitudes that are, incredibly, actually encouraged and endorsed by (apparently, if your post is any indication) members of the public.

The extreme paranoia of police for their own safety that you briefly touched on comes at the expense of the safety of the public they are pledged to protect. The veil of immunity and impunity for police needs to come down. Take away their guns so they murder fewer people and they won't feel the need for such strong legal protections.

Your comment about your son receiving training that sets "a very definite mentality to take total control" is a huge cause of the problem. You claim that without it people die, but with it people also die, a lot. Our police forces send powder kegs of fear and paranoia and anxiety out to patrol our streets every day. It's a miracle more people aren't killed, and it's a crime (can we call it a hate crime?) that so disproportionate a number of their victims are minorities.

Your mention of bad cops reminds me of how Christians define true Christians: if a Christian was thought a true Christian but then does something wrong then that means that obviously they were not a true Christian. That kind of thinking is nonsensical and circular, and the thinking about cops is the same. As long as they do nothing wrong they're good cops, but as soon as they do something wrong then that means that they're bad cops, deficient in character or judgment or in some other way.

But there aren't good cops and bad cops, just as they're aren't good Christians and bad Christians. For the most part they're all just normal people. But by the laws of statistics it is guaranteed that a certain percentage of good people will do bad things. They are, most of them, still good people.

We are making a major mistake if we think we can solve the policing problem by rooting out the bad cops. If the police want to go on a witch hunt for the bad cops among them they need only look in the mirror and they'll see a bad cop. And a good one, too.

The problem is systemic. Too many people have guns, including too many police. And too many people in law enforcement, and not just the rank and file, believe force and fear are fundamental to law enforcement. Too many police training courses encourage this kind of thinking.

There are not two sides to every story. If you think there are, tell that to George Floyd and innumerable others.

I feel a great deal of sadness for Kim Potter who is a very good cop who made a tragic mistake not because she was careless or poorly trained or lacked judgment or was impaired or anything like that, but because she is human and human beings make mistakes. In any very large population of people armed with both guns and Tasers, a certain small percentage will on occasion pull one when they intended the other. In a very strong sense the mistake was not Kim Potter's. The mistake was a society's that provided her a career path that appealed to her because of the good she could do and then immersed her in a culture of paranoia and fear and violence, providing her mostly hammers as tools.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 653 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 11:24 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20050
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


(3)
Message 655 of 658 (885709)
04-23-2021 1:10 PM


A Little Humor
Discussion of police incidents brought this Far Side comic to mind:

--Percy


  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20050
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 656 of 658 (885741)
04-25-2021 9:59 AM


I'm sure everyone's been following with very close attention and would never confuse Andrew Brown (dead, thanks to the police) with Isaiah Brown (alive, no thanks to the police) who has 10 bullet wounds because he was holding a phone to his head. The true stupidity of the deputy (people who read my stuff know that I'm really reluctant to reach that conclusion since I believe police problems are systemic and not due to bad apples) is revealed when you learn that he'd just dropped Isaiah Brown off at his house moments before because Brown's car had broken down a few miles away, it was very late at night around 3 AM, and the deputy was a nice buy who gave him a ride home so he could call for help.

Shot 10 times for pulling out a phone? Why 10 times? Was he pointing the phone at the deputy? Did Brown refuse instructions to stop calling Democratic PACs?

The deputy actually thought Brown had the gun pointed to his head. We know this because he shouted into his radio, "He's got a gun to his head." And so, apparently, when Brown walked toward the deputy with the phone pointed at his head the deputy felt threatened. And Brown probably didn't hear the deputy's instructions to stop soon enough because he was having a loud conversation with his brother on his gun, er, phone.

You can't make this stuff up, folks. It would be like the Marx Brothers sometimes if it weren't so tragic. Here's advice I've given before: If you're in the presence of police put your phone away. Put everything away. Stand in bright light. Hold your arms away from your sides. Collectively as a group police are anxious and paranoid. Keep your eyes on that gun, one hand is likely resting on it, and be prepared to take cover. Oh, did I forget to add that if you're white you only have to worry about this 25% as much? Here's a recent article: Deputy who shot Black man appears to mistake phone for gun

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


Replies to this message:
 Message 657 by Phat, posted 04-26-2021 9:04 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15245
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 657 of 658 (885770)
04-26-2021 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 656 by Percy
04-25-2021 9:59 AM


Guns And Pop Culture
This video was made by a young You Tube filmaker. It depicts suburban innocence (unlike children who grow up in a non suburban way) and it kinda shows how I may have grown up. We white folks think that there are cowboys and there are indians and the police are our friends who protect the suburban good guys from the evil gangs of the inner cities. Thank God there is still innocence in this world. Lets get rid of the guns...even toy ones can carry a cultural meme...as follows

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 656 by Percy, posted 04-25-2021 9:59 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1239
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 658 of 658 (885805)
04-27-2021 2:13 AM


Not a shooting this time, but for crying out loud !
US police mock dementia sufferer in torture arrest

This one isn’t a police shooting, but it is seriously wrong.

She’s 73. She is zero, and I mean zero threat. She is treated disgustingly.

The lawyers will argue that the officers aren’t medical experts and can’t diagnose dementia - but please; every person I know can tell when someone is not in possession of all of their faculties, and each one of those people will treat that person with kindness and respect.

I am not saying that all police officers are like this - but we are seeing a distressingly regular number who are.

Something is broken. It needs fixing.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

  
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