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Author Topic:   The spectacular fall of YEC beliefs
Faith
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Posts: 33732
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 6 of 198 (833010)
05-16-2018 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Tangle
05-16-2018 2:51 AM


We (I) can't reconcile iPads and a liberal Constitution with creationism.

That's because you've lost your Christian roots, and lost all sense of history. Biblical young earth creationism is the correct Christian interpretation and it was Christianity that gave us our liberal Constitution and western civilization in general for that matter. Get completely rid of creationism, get completely rid of Christianity and you will also lose all the rest of it as you sink back into paganism.

'With reference to other comments on this thread, this isn't a matter of old folks dying out, this is a matter of the truth of God that gets renewed in every generation. It isn't going away completely. Good news for you if you knew how to appreciate it.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 33732
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 8 of 198 (833015)
05-16-2018 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Tangle
05-16-2018 5:30 AM


The Constitution was based on Christian principles, though the main founders weren't Christians and the more I know about them the more I think they betrayed the essence of their own country despite their incorporation of Christian principles into the Constitution. They were total idiots when it came to the destructive influences of other religions.

As for you all being so happy now, how long has that been? It isn't coing to last long. Maybe it will outlive you but not by long. Besides which, to believe you are so happy means you have to shut your eyes to some evidence to the contrary.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 33732
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 10 of 198 (833020)
05-16-2018 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by JonF
05-16-2018 9:06 AM


Sure, the devil knows how to write history too.

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Faith
Member
Posts: 33732
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 13 of 198 (833023)
05-16-2018 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Tangle
05-16-2018 9:36 AM


Yes, some 95% of the population at the time of the Constitution was seriously Christian, the schools taught from the Bible and the Westminster Catechism, and the few Deists among the founders betrayed them by removing the Christian inspiration from the Constitution. They were nevertheless soaked in Christian principles and that came through in spite of themselves. The best of the Enlightenment was inspired by Christianity too. But since none of you knows any of that you are eager to get back to tribal paganism and witchcraft, now weirdly justified by Christian principles you do not know the source of.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 33732
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 15 of 198 (833025)
05-16-2018 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by JonF
05-16-2018 9:54 AM


I'm one of the very few here who has a clue how to "deal with" the devil.

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Faith
Member
Posts: 33732
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 17 of 198 (833029)
05-16-2018 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by JonF
05-16-2018 10:04 AM


This is not about joining church and state, meaning having a state church, this is about preserving the philosophical foundations of the country. Putting God in the Constitution as was done in the Declaration of Independence would not be joining church and state but it would be declaring the essential Christian nature of the nation. Well, the few Deist rounders who dominated in the Constitutional framing betrayed the country despite their having been so soaked in Christian doctrine themselves they couldn't keep it out. All the Chrsitian influence has been getting redefined and expunged from our national life over the last half century or so, it can be felt in the deterioration of the moral life of the people and especially our leaders, we're sliding downhill rapidly and will soon be joining Europe in total pagan darkness in which witchcraft will once again be the religion.

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Faith
Member
Posts: 33732
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 25 of 198 (833062)
05-16-2018 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
05-16-2018 11:49 AM


Actually the best of the Enlightenment was inspired by a fear of Christianity so you can say that the example of Christianity inspired the separation from it's threat.

A lot of the Enlightenment was protesting Roman Catholicism, rightly so in my opinion, and the Protetant Reformation did contribute to the best of the Enlightenment. John Locke, for instance, was mentored by John Owen, one of the greatest of the Puritan thinkers. Granted there were many influences involved, but some powerful ones were definitely from a Christian worldview. If the supernatural roots of Christianity hadn't been purged it would not have degenerated into the paganism we're now sliding toward.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 33732
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 26 of 198 (833063)
05-16-2018 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by JonF
05-16-2018 10:58 AM


It probably won't come not because it's false but because it's in books I've read, and even those books aren't currently available to me now.

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Faith
Member
Posts: 33732
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 31 of 198 (833077)
05-16-2018 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by JonF
05-16-2018 3:40 PM


John Owen was one of the greatest Puritan thinkers, a dean at Oxford, where he MENTORED John Locke who was one of his students. Where did you get "referenced?"

Here's a list of Owen's writings at Wikipedia just so his credentials are clear:

Works in print[edit]
As of 2007, the majority of Owen's voluminous works are still in print:
Communion with God, Christian Heritage. ISBN 1-84550-209-4.
Works of John Owen (2000). On CD-ROM from Ages Software. ISBN 5-550-03299-6. Of the Integrity and Purity of the Hebrew and Greek Text of the Scripture; with Considerations on the Prolegomena and Appendix to the Late "Biblia Polyglotta," in vol. IX, The Works of John Owen, ed. Gould, William H, & Quick, Charles W., Philadelphia, PA: Leighton Publications, (1865)
Collected Works in 16 Volumes from the Banner of Truth Trust. ISBN 0-85151-392-1.
Commentary on Hebrews in 7 volumes from the Banner of Truth Trust. ISBN 0-85151-619-X.
The Mortification of Sin, Christian Heritage Publishers. ISBN 1-85792-107-0.
Biblical Theology: The History of Theology From Adam to Christ or The Nature, Origin, Development, and Study of Theological Truth, In Six Books, Soli Deo Gloria Ministries. ISBN 1-877611-83-2.
Sin & Temptation: The Challenge to Personal Godliness. An abridgement by James M. Houston for modern readers of two of Owen's works. ISBN 1-55661-830-1.
The Glory of Christ: His Office and His Grace. ISBN 1-85792-474-6.
John Owen on Temptation - The Nature and Power of it, The Danger of Entering it and the Means of Preventing the Danger, Diggory Press, ISBN 978-1-84685-749-2
The Death of Death in the Death of Christ, Diggory Press, ISBN 978-1-84685-740-9
The Divine Power of the Gospel, Diggory Press, ISBN 978-1-84685-740-9
A Dissertation on Divine Justice, Diggory Press, ISBN 978-1-84685-785-0
Gospel Grounds and Evidences of the Faith of God's Elect, Diggory Press, ISBN 978-1-84685-757-7
John Owen on The Holy Spirit - The Spirit and Regeneration (Book III of Pneumatologia), Diggory Press, ISBN 978-1-84685-810-9
John Owen on The Holy Spirit - The Spirit as a Comforter (Book VIII of Pneumatologia), Diggory Press, ISBN 978-1-84685-750-8
John Owen on The Holy Spirit - The Spirit and Prayer (Book VII of Pneumatologia), Diggory Press, ISBN 978-1-84685-752-2
John Owen on The Holy Spirit - The Spiritual Gifts (Book IX of Pneumatologia), Diggory Press, ISBN 978-1-84685-751-5
The Oxford Orations of Dr. John Owen. Ed. Peter Toon. Trans. [from the Latin] supervised by John Glucker. Callington (Cornwall): Gospel Communication. 1971. ISBN 9780950125213 Online edition.
A Brief Declaration and Vindication of the Doctrine of the Trinity, as also of the Person and Satisfaction of Christ (1699) - a refutation of Socinianism, in particular against the teaching of John Biddle.[8]

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Faith
Member
Posts: 33732
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 34 of 198 (833092)
05-16-2018 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Tangle
05-16-2018 5:10 PM


I bet I'd enjoy hearing all you Brits talk to each other with your accents.

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Faith
Member
Posts: 33732
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 38 of 198 (833101)
05-16-2018 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Modulous
05-16-2018 7:16 PM


Re: ask an ye shall receive (sort of)
Wow, I must say I really DID enjoy that, immensely. Thank you. There's no way anyone can really anticipate what a person you only know on an internet message board would sound like, or look like or act like, it's always going to be a surprise though I don't even really know what I expected, it's just a surprise to hear you in person. Nice voice by the way. OK, maybe lower than I expected? More baritone than tenor? Softer than I expected. So I guess I had some expectations though I didn't know it until I heard you. As for the accent I hear some Scottish in it? But what do I know?

Thanks again, that was fun.

ABE: I had to look up "rhotacism" -- but I didn't hear it in your voice. I guess I'll have to listen more.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 33732
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 40 of 198 (833108)
05-17-2018 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by dwise1
05-17-2018 3:05 AM


Rights of conscience is particularly a Christian idea. John Owen, the Puritan I mentioned who was a dean at Oxford when Locke was a student there, was a great champion, and possibly the originator of the idea. Because the Puritans had been persecuted by the Church of England. This kind of experience was of course the reason to oppose the idea of a state church. Catholicism traditionally refuses to grant freedom of conscience aned historically persecuted and murdered those who did not follow their doctrines. Same with Islam. There's no freedom of conscience in Muslim countries. But they are all in favor of it in America where they benefit by it.

However, rights of conscience is a personal matter that of course should be allowed to anyone, but power in the running of the nation is another thing. The nation should have been clearly defined as Christian in inspiration and all other religions given freedom of conscience but no power.

There was an attempt by many of the majority Christians during that era who protested the leaving out of God, to rewrite the Constitution to include God, including many who were officially founders, yes many of them just not the Big Five who had so much unfortunate power,

There is no doubt that the God of the Declaration was intended to be the Christian God. It would be utterly ridiculous to suppose anything else considering the majority mindset of the day.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 33732
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 42 of 198 (833112)
05-17-2018 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
05-17-2018 7:29 AM


Re: Christianity cannot be trusted with any power or authority.
Every one of the colonies had a state Christian church. That was rejected rightly in the Constitution, but that the nation was to be run on general Christian principles was not rejected, and in practice that is what happened for the first hundred or more years anyway, with Christian prayer in Congress, Bibles printed for use in the schools, laws against anti-Christian speech and many other indications of the essential Christianity of the nation. Until the pagans and atheists started reinterpreting the meaning of the Constitution.

The First Amendment says that CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW RESPECTING THE ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION. Meaning a state church at least and that Congress was to keep its nose completely out of religious concerns. The way it is interpreted now is the perfectly idiotic and dangerous result o judicial revisionism.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 33732
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 44 of 198 (833114)
05-17-2018 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
05-17-2018 8:15 AM


Re: Christianity cannot be trusted with any power or authority.
It was the federal government, not the individual states, that "violated the Constitution," that very Constitution that had just brought the United States government into being.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 33732
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 45 of 198 (833115)
05-17-2018 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Tangle
05-16-2018 12:42 PM


To be honest, although I was born and raised a traditional Christian in an overwhelmingly Christian community the stuff I hear you Americans talking about never ever came up. Evolution was universally taught and young earth was never ever raised. Maybe that's an English Christain thing.

I wouldn't say my small town was overwhelmingly Christian. There were three churches in the town and I have no idea how many attended. I got evolution in school but not a word in church, for or against, and nothing about the young earth or creationism in either the church or the school.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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