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Author Topic:   The spectacular fall of YEC beliefs
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 5 of 198 (833009)
05-16-2018 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
05-13-2018 5:55 PM


Mod writes:

Between 1982 and 2005 belief in Special creation amongst the American population hovered between 44-47%

I'm not sure you Yanks realise what a special case you are in modern Western democracies. To us here in Western Europe you're a bizarre combination of primitive superstition and advanced societal development. We (I) can't reconcile iPads and a liberal Constitution with creationism.

The Uk is around 10-15% creationist - which I still find shocking high even though it's mostly hidden so not as obvious as the US. And it seems to be on an increasing trend as immigration from Muslim countries and Estern Europe grows. There's still a very long way to go if you take a world view.

quote:
A 2007 study of religious patterns found that only 8% of Egyptians, 11% of Malaysians, 14% of Pakistanis, 16% of Indonesians, and 22% of Turks agree that Darwin's theory is probably or most certainly true, and a 2006 survey reported that about a quarter of Turkish adults agreed that human beings evolved from earlier animal species.[64] Surveys carried out by researchers affiliated with McGill University's Evolution Education Research Centre found that in Egypt and Pakistan, while the official high school curriculum does include evolution, many of the teachers there do not believe in it themselves, and will often tell their students so.[65]

Currently in Egypt, evolution is taught in schools but Saudi Arabia and Sudan have both banned the teaching of evolution in schools.[66][67] In recent times, creationism has become more widespread in other Islamic countries.[68]

The results of a survey of the adherence to creation science of 5,700 teachers from 14 countries was presented during the 2008 XIII IOSTE Symposium in Izmir, Turkey. Lebanon, Senegal, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria had 62% to 81% of creationist teachers (with no difference between biologists and others). Romania and Burkina Faso had 45% to 48% of creationist teachers in Romania and Burkina Faso, with no difference between biologists and other in Romania, but a clear difference (p<0.001) in Burkina Faso (with 61% of creationists for the not biology teachers). Portugal and Cyprus had 15% to 30% of creationist teachers, with no significant difference between biologists, but a significant difference in Portugal (p=0.004, 17% and 26%).[69]


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism_by_country

I don't think we can rely on the internet - it works both ways there are huge amounts of creationist and religious sites out there and the believers are just as capable with their propoganda as any other tribe; kids can remain inside their creationist bubble quite easily


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Modulous, posted 05-13-2018 5:55 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 4:47 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 22 by Modulous, posted 05-16-2018 12:15 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 7 of 198 (833011)
05-16-2018 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
05-16-2018 4:47 AM


Faith writes:

That's because you've lost your Christian roots, and lost all sense of history.

I'm not particularly familiar with the US constitution but I believe one of its aims was to protect its citizens from fundamantalist belief systems like yours was it not?

Biblical young earth creationism is the correct Christian interpretation

Obviously false.

Get completely rid of creationism, get completely rid of Christianity and you will also lose all the rest of it as you sink back into paganism.

Facts and evidence tell you the exact opposite - though of course you are immune to them. The happiest, most satisfied societies are those with the least belief in religion. Try Scandanavia.

But I suspect you've never left your country to see how the rest of the world works. I once asked you if you own a passport - you didn't answer?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 4:47 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 7:25 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 12 of 198 (833022)
05-16-2018 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
05-16-2018 7:25 AM


Faith writes:

The Constitution was based on Christian principles, though the main founders weren't Christians and the more I know about them the more I think they betrayed the essence of their own country despite their incorporation of Christian principles into the Constitution. They were total idiots when it came to the destructive influences of other religions.

I guess you want to withdraw your previous statement then

quote:
it was Christianity that gave us our liberal Constitution and western civilization in general for that matter.

As for you all being so happy now, how long has that been?

Since they shook off superstition.

It isn't coing to last long.

According to Faith who has a proclamation on everything but knows nothing about anything.

Besides which, to believe you are so happy means you have to shut your eyes to some evidence to the contrary.

The irony.....

So, you have no passport and no education, yet you know so much.

Have you ever left your state?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 7:25 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 9:52 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 18 of 198 (833031)
05-16-2018 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
05-16-2018 9:52 AM


Faith writes:

Yes, some 95% of the population at the time of the Constitution was seriously Christian, the schools taught from the Bible and the Westminster Catechism, and the few Deists among the founders betrayed them by removing the Christian inspiration from the Constitution. They were nevertheless soaked in Christian principles and that came through in spite of themselves. The best of the Enlightenment was inspired by Christianity too.

You're mistaking Christians - ie people - with Christianity - ie religion. I'm a Christian; I just happen to be an atheistic one. It was people that 'inspired' the enlightement, not religion. Left to its own devices religion would prevent the seaarch for knowledge and did so for centuries. But you know this.

But since none of you knows any of that you are eager to get back to tribal paganism and witchcraft, now weirdly justified by Christian principles you do not know the source of.

Humanism is fine. You may have noticed that no one here has ever expressed a desire for witchcraft, paganism or tribalism. In fact quite the opposite if you cared anything about actual truth.

So never left your state then. How about town?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 9:52 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 19 of 198 (833033)
05-16-2018 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
05-16-2018 10:26 AM


Faith writes:

we're sliding downhill rapidly and will soon be joining Europe in total pagan darkness in which witchcraft will once again be the religion.

You're bonkers. Stark staring bonkers.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 10:26 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 23 of 198 (833055)
05-16-2018 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Modulous
05-16-2018 12:15 PM


Mod writes:

I don't know where you are based in the UK exactly but 10% doesn't seem unexpected to me. About 4-5% of the population is Muslim and they are overwhelmingly Creationist - even the ones that 'aren't really' creationist would be unlikely to say they weren't.

To be honest, although I was born and raised a traditional Christian in an overwhelmingly Christian community the stuff I hear you Americans talking about never ever came up. Evolution was universally taught and young earth was never ever raised. Maybe that's an English Christain thing.

I think it's reasonable however, to look to the US as a 'soft target' - somewhere where attitudes are more amenable to change.

Sure, it's easier go from 40% to 30% than from 10% to 0%. And it's great to see it happening. What's surprising is how late you guys are.

But as there numbers decrease, it becomes increasingly difficult to remain in that bubble. It looks like acceptance of evolution is slowly creeping southwards. The evidence suggests young people are less likely to reject evolution than old people, so the bubble enforcement seems to weake

It's inevitable - I hope.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Modulous, posted 05-16-2018 12:15 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Modulous, posted 05-16-2018 2:17 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 05-17-2018 8:35 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 33 of 198 (833090)
05-16-2018 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Modulous
05-16-2018 2:17 PM


Mod writes:

The first time, I let it slide as I assume you were talking to the 'crowd' - but I am definitely not an American.

Apologies, a terrible, terrible insult. You must feel badly abused; I know I would. I was blind-sighted by you speaking about American beliefs as though you were an American.

(Btw, i was born West of Manchester, went to Manchester Uni. Lived in Salford for a couple of years. Still don't like Eccle's cakes or football.)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Modulous, posted 05-16-2018 2:17 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 5:33 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 35 of 198 (833095)
05-16-2018 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
05-16-2018 5:33 PM


Faith writes:

I bet I'd enjoy hearing all you Brits talk to each other with your accents.

I bet in real life we're all actually quite human.

Longshot.....


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 5:33 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 75 of 198 (833182)
05-18-2018 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Faith
05-18-2018 10:38 AM


Re: Christianity cannot be trusted with any power or authority.
Faith writes:

Universal literacy and then general educqation was a goal in the west and nowhere else that I know of, and it was because of the Christian desire to create a populace that could read the Bible.

Your lack of a passport and an education plus a mind constricted by biblical “truths” makes you an unreliable source Faith.

But it's true that at least here in the UK religion had a large influence in education, particularly following the reformation. But its motives were not altruistic, they were to promote the Church's influence. 'Get them young.'

The church actively tried to prevent secular, state-based education - the last thing a religion wants is an enquiring mind and different answers than their own.

quote:
Prior to the nineteenth century, there were few schools. Most of those that existed were run by church authorities and stressed religious education.[11] The Church of England resisted early attempts for the state to provide secular education.[12]

In 1811, the Anglican National Society for Promoting the Education of the Poor in the Principles of the Established Church in England and Wales was established. The schools founded by the National Society were called National Schools. They were eventually absorbed into the state system under the Butler Act (1944), and to this day many state schools, most of them primary schools, maintain a link to the Church of England, reflecting their historic origins.

The Protestant non-conformist, non-denominational, or "British schools" were founded by Society for Promoting the Lancasterian System for the Education of the Poor, an organisation formed in 1808 by Joseph Fox, William Allen and Samuel Whitbread and supported by several evangelical and non-conformist Christians.[13]

In 1814, compulsory apprenticeship by indenture was abolished. By 1831, Sunday School in Great Britain was ministering weekly to 1,250,000 children, approximately 25% of the population. As these schools preceded the first state funding of schools for the common public, they are sometimes seen as a forerunner to the current English school system.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/...istory_of_education_in_England

The Catholics resisted saying the Mass in English until the mid 20th century for fear that once the public understood what they were actually saying they'd see how daft it was. They were correct to worry.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 10:38 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 11:14 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 12:17 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 79 of 198 (833190)
05-18-2018 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
05-18-2018 11:14 AM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
Faith writes:

Who I am is irrelevant, the argument is what you need to be addressing.

Who you are is very relevant because where you stand affects what you can see.

When you speak about geology, molecular biology, palaeontology, evolution etc etc it's relevant to know whether you have any education or knowledge in those areas. We know you don't.

I'm interested in whether you have a passport - you don't of course - because had you ever travelled outside your tiny bubble you might have acquired a less caustic view of life outside your parochial little world.

quote:
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.

Mark Twain


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 11:14 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 11:46 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 81 of 198 (833192)
05-18-2018 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
05-18-2018 11:46 AM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
Faith writes:

You know absolutely nothing about me, you have a lot of narrowminded bigoted views about who I am, and again it is absolutely irrelevant to the argument.

I know a lot about you Faith. I've been reading your stuff for years. Of course if I've got it all wrong and you have qualifications in the things you make claims about, it's easy to put me right. Similarly if you've travelled the world - and even travelled outside your own state - do tell.

The rule against ad hominem exists for a reason and your biased tiny mind can't change it just to suit your own narrowminded smallminded bias.

Hmm, that sounded almost like an ad hominen...

If you object to the argument, answer the argument.

I did answer your question - you just ignored it, as usual.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 11:46 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 11:56 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 85 of 198 (833197)
05-18-2018 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
05-18-2018 11:56 AM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
Faith writes:

The idea that you can tell anything about me because I'm a creationist is idiotically smallminded of you.

You can tell a lot about people from what they believe and in your case I quite obviously can tell a few things about you can't I?

Of course if I'm wrong you could always say so.

Meanwhile, you've ignored my answer again.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 11:56 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 12:21 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 88 of 198 (833200)
05-18-2018 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
05-18-2018 12:17 PM


Re: Christianity cannot be trusted with any power or authority.
Faith writes:

The point of promoting literacy was to establish Biblical knowledge among the people.

Self-serving, political and an attempt to indoctrinate.

Of course, because society can only deteriorate without a Christian worldview to govern it. We're not talking "A religion" of course, we're talking the God who made it all.

Luckily the policy of indoctrination failed and the result is that with the decline of religion's power, secular society has made huge progress despite being utterly stagnant for a millenia under religious rule.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 12:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 2:51 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 90 of 198 (833203)
05-18-2018 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Faith
05-18-2018 12:21 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
Faith writes:

I lived the first 45 plus years of my life as a secular liberal who believed in evolution and had a good reputation among my intellectual friends.

I know, you've told us many times.

When I became a Christian and a YEC I didn't turn into somebody else.

The questions were about whether you have any education or a passport or if you've ever even travelled outside your state.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 12:21 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 12:50 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 94 of 198 (833212)
05-18-2018 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Faith
05-18-2018 12:50 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
Then we're forced to form our own conclusions......

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 12:50 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 2:15 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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