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Author Topic:   The spectacular fall of YEC beliefs
JonF
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(2)
Message 9 of 198 (833019)
05-16-2018 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
05-16-2018 4:47 AM


western civilization in general for that matter

Today's Western civilization is an outgrowth of the Enlightenment (which some prominent YECs call the Endarkenment). Christians gave us the Dark Ages and Calvin's Geneva.


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JonF
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Posts: 5601
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 14 of 198 (833024)
05-16-2018 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
05-16-2018 9:19 AM


Sure, the devil knows how to write history too.

Them's the facts. Deal with it.


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JonF
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Message 16 of 198 (833027)
05-16-2018 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
05-16-2018 9:52 AM


Yes, some 95% of the population at the time of the Constitution was seriously Christian, the schools taught from the Bible and the Westminster Catechism, and the few Deists among the founders betrayed them by removing the Christian inspiration from the Constitution.

The entire group that created the Constitution realized the dangers in joining the church to the state. Calvin gave a great example in Geneva.

The best of the Enlightenment was inspired by Christianity too.

[citation required]

Wikipedia:

quote:
The Enlightenment included a range of ideas centred on reason as the primary source of authority and legitimacy and came to advance ideals like liberty, progress, tolerance, fraternity, constitutional government and separation of church and state.[4][5] In France, the central doctrines of the Enlightenment philosophers were individual liberty and religious tolerance, in opposition to an absolute monarchy and the fixed dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church. The Enlightenment was marked by an emphasis on the scientific method and reductionism, along with increased questioning of religious orthodoxy—an attitude captured by the phrase Sapere aude, "Dare to know".[6]

...

The Age of Enlightenment was preceded by and closely associated with the scientific revolution.[8] Earlier philosophers whose work influenced the Enlightenment included Bacon, Descartes, Locke, and Spinoza.[9] The major figures of the Enlightenment included Beccaria, Diderot, Hume, Kant, Montesquieu, Rousseau, Adam Smith, and Voltaire. Some European rulers, including Catherine II of Russia, Joseph II of Austria and Frederick II of Prussia, tried to apply Enlightenment thought on religious and political tolerance, which became known as enlightened absolutism.[10] Benjamin Franklin visited Europe repeatedly and contributed actively to the scientific and political debates there and brought the newest ideas back to Philadelphia. Thomas Jefferson closely followed European ideas and later incorporated some of the ideals of the Enlightenment into the Declaration of Independence (1776). One of his peers, James Madison, incorporated these ideals into the United States Constitution during its framing in 1787.[11]


(emphasis added)


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JonF
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Posts: 5601
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 20 of 198 (833036)
05-16-2018 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
05-16-2018 10:26 AM


Yep, it would be declaring the essential Christian nature of the nation. Since the framers deliberately did not declare the essential Christian nature of the nation there is no such essential Christian nature. That's a good thing.

Calvin's Geneva.

The best of the Enlightenment was inspired by Christianity too.

Waiting for support for that claim.

It'll never come.

'Cuz it's false.


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JonF
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Posts: 5601
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 29 of 198 (833074)
05-16-2018 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
05-16-2018 2:27 PM


That's what you got? A guy referenced John Locke?

If a Puritan thinker referenced Locke, that was the Enlightenment influencing Christians. The opposite of what you claimed. And a pretty minor influence.

Got any examples of Christians significantly affecting or influencing the Enlightenment other than as a bad example to be avoided?


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JonF
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Posts: 5601
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 30 of 198 (833075)
05-16-2018 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
05-16-2018 2:28 PM


Yeah, that's really convincing. Rock solid evidence that you think some people wrote stuff somewhere that would support your claim.

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JonF
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Posts: 5601
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 32 of 198 (833087)
05-16-2018 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
05-16-2018 3:52 PM


Whoops, somehow I read "mentored" as "referenced". Senior moment. So that invalidates what I wrote.

But I'm still not impressed. People do turn against mentors sometimes. The challenge for you is to produce evidence or argument that Owen affected the Enlightenment/Locke.

Which you've already admitted you can't do. No matter whether or not your claim is true you have no support. Since the Enlightenment was significantly anti-religion I strongly doubt your claim.


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JonF
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Posts: 5601
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Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 113 of 198 (833259)
05-18-2018 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Percy
05-18-2018 5:49 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
And Catholics.

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JonF
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Posts: 5601
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 128 of 198 (833378)
05-20-2018 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
05-20-2018 10:32 AM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
Reformation Proetstantism that inspired all the liberal doctr5ines of the American constitution

The Enlightenment.


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JonF
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Posts: 5601
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 157 of 198 (833447)
05-21-2018 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Faith
05-21-2018 3:17 AM


Re: Christianity, Science & 'Truth'
And the best of the Enlightenment came out of the Reformation.

Just a week or so ago you tried to defend that claim and failed spectacularly. Remember:


  • You read it somewhere
  • John Locke studied under a well-known Protestant theologan.

When challenged to show the effect of the Reformation on the Enlightenment, you bailed. Since anti-religion was one of the major concepts of the Enlightenment you'll have to come up with some pretty strong evidence to prove your claim.

So far bupkis.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


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JonF
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Posts: 5601
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 158 of 198 (833449)
05-21-2018 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Faith
05-21-2018 3:19 AM


There are lots of websites that present the Christian basis of the Constitution, such as THIS ONE I haven't found the best quotes yet.

That's pretty pathetic. Many of the principles listed are from many religions and/or the Enlightenment. Some are flat out lies:

"Church protected from state control (& taxation), but church to influence the state"; that last clause is false. ABE: So is the first clause. There is no mention of churches or taxation thereof in the Constitution.

Some are incredibly lame:

On checks and balances, "all men are sinners" (not in the sense of against God) is an observation by anyone who's studied people. No religion required.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


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