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Author Topic:   Motley Flood Thread (formerly Historical Science Mystification of Public)
Pollux
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Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


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Message 684 of 877 (835102)
06-17-2018 9:20 PM


What Flood geologists say
This is an interesting article in which the author uses only arguments proposed by different supporters of a Flood to show it could not have occurred at any time in the Earth's history. There is no general agreement among them of what constitutes pre-Flood, Flood, and post-Flood.
Page not found | National Center for Science Education

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 Message 708 by Faith, posted 06-18-2018 9:34 PM Pollux has replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


(1)
Message 711 of 877 (835164)
06-18-2018 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 708 by Faith
06-18-2018 9:34 PM


Re: What Flood geologists say
This is a motley Flood thread so I thought it appropriate to mention it, and that some here would be interested.
For me, going to the link and clicking on the download button in the bottom left corner gives access to the article.
Briefly, various "Flood geologists" have different views for the geologic level that represents where the Flood starts and stops, and reasons for why their view is right. But every level or levels that one argues for will be argued against by one or more others with their reasons.
So just using the reasons of "Flood geologists" it can be shown that there is no part of the geologic record that can represent the Flood.

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 Message 708 by Faith, posted 06-18-2018 9:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 745 of 877 (835225)
06-20-2018 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 674 by Faith
06-17-2018 3:52 PM


Tectonic bashing and crashing
Hi Faith
You place the major amount of tectonic motion toward the end of the Flood, and this would include the associated vulcanism, so lets consider what is involved. There are very many active, dormant and extinct volcanoes in the western Americas which have to be built by both tectonic uplift and also by volcanic deposit. Large volcanic eruptions make their presence felt well away from the actual volcano. For instance Tambora in 1816 caused weather effects and famines across the Northern hemisphere in producing about 30 cubic Km of ejecta. Toba, the biggest in recent geologic time - 74000 years ago and 1200 cubic km - sent its ash over India and is measurable in Africa in Lake Malawi cores at about 42 metres deep (which is where it would be expected after carbon dating the upper layers to 50000 at 28 metres.) There is nothing comparable above it. Incidentally there are human artefacts above and below the ash in India.
To build the American volcanoes alone without the world-wide ones requires orders of magnitude more ejecta. Surely this should have left an obvious layer ABOVE the Grand canyon layers. Where is it? Alternatively, what would your Flood hypothesis predict we should see?
Then we can add in the problem of literally 10s if not 100s of millions cubic km of flood basalts which have to be produced without poisoning poor Noah and his so carefully preserved menagerie from the associated gases.
Edited by Pollux, : grammar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 674 by Faith, posted 06-17-2018 3:52 PM Faith has replied

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 Message 749 by Faith, posted 06-20-2018 4:43 AM Pollux has replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


(1)
Message 794 of 877 (835306)
06-21-2018 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 749 by Faith
06-20-2018 4:43 AM


Re: Tectonic bashing and crashing
Hi Faith,
Putting volcanism under the water to wash away the evidence does not work, because the world's volcanoes are obviously built above the water because they are still here. And not just the volcanoes but the land they are on is also substantially built by volcanoes - think Indonesia, Japan, etc.
Ash from historical eruptions in the last 2000 years or so can be found around the world. Where is the massive layer that would be produced by jamming all this volcanism into a short time?
Most of these volcanoes are caused by tectonic plate subduction. The plate has to go several 100 km deep to melt and produce magma, which then has to work its way up to the surface to erupt. The sheer physics of this means it takes a long time.
For it all to happen at the end of the Flood, picture miles of plate diving underground every day, melting like crazy at a rate that defies physics, and the magma speeding up through 100s of km of rock to erupt out of the way before the next bit comes.
Faith, it ain't gonna work!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 749 by Faith, posted 06-20-2018 4:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 798 by Faith, posted 06-21-2018 4:02 PM Pollux has replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


(1)
Message 799 of 877 (835343)
06-21-2018 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 798 by Faith
06-21-2018 4:02 PM


Re: Tectonic bashing and crashing
There are many aspects of volcanism that refute YEC and the ridiculous idea of catastrophic plate tectonics. (CPT)
Lithospheric plates are mostly formed at mid-ocean ridges. They are composed of oceanic crust and outer mantle, are typically about 100km thick, and move at about 10cm per year. Where the plate reaches a continent such as the west coast of America it subducts at an angle around 45 deg. Seismic studies can track the plate as it descends till it disappears around 700 km deep. In the time it has spent in contact with the ocean water some of the minerals have undergone change to ones with more water in them. Also as it subducts it takes down water.
As you go deeper it gets hotter. The water in the plate lowers its melting point, so at 700km it starts to melt though the surrounding mantle has not. This generates the magma which works its way
up. When it gets near the surface it is under less pressure so the contained water and other gases are able to form bubbles, like taking the top off a shaken bottle of Coke.
The magma is viscous because of its composition so the result is it gets blown apart to produce lots of ash as well as thick lava. Layers of ash and lava from successive eruptions builds up a composite volcano, the classic cone shape.
The thickness of the descending plate means it takes a long time for heat to penetrate it to melt it. Physics would need to change to accelerate it. Then it takes time for the magma to work its way up 700km.
This is the case with the ring of fire around the Pacific. Hawaii is a hot spot volcano with lots of free flowing lava and little ash. So planes are flying in and out of Hawaii with no trouble from its eruption, while one in Indonesia can ground flights. Hawaii's volcanoes have their own problems for YEC and CPT.
The eruption of one volcano -Tambora in 1816 - had effects on the atmosphere and weather for a couple of years across the Northern Hemisphere with probably millions of deaths from famine. Cramming the development of most of the world's volcanoes into a short time at the end of the flood would affect the atmosphere so much it would require Noah to build a big shed with its own filtered air supply and heating to protect the animals for years before it was safe to let them out to repopulate the Earth. This is why I say "It ain't gonna work"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 798 by Faith, posted 06-21-2018 4:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 800 by Faith, posted 06-21-2018 11:23 PM Pollux has replied
 Message 801 by Faith, posted 06-22-2018 1:09 AM Pollux has replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


(1)
Message 802 of 877 (835361)
06-22-2018 5:05 AM
Reply to: Message 801 by Faith
06-22-2018 1:09 AM


Re: Tectonic bashing and crashing
On checking I see there is a detail correction to be made to my description of the subducting slab. The ocean crust portion of it, 6-11 km of basalt, melts and the water in the slab is released as super hot fluids which lower the melting point of the surrounding mantle to produce the magma. The rest of the slab becomes indistinguishable from the surrounding mantle. Wiki has a good description under Subduction.
The picture you have in your mind of lava production is what you have in intra-plate volcanism such as at Hawaii which is over a hot spot from a plume of hot mantle - runny lava with not much ash.
I have a textbook on igneous rocks from 1960, and it is interesting to read their puzzlement over why different volcanoes produce different lavas. The answer came a few years later when plate tectonics was worked out.

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Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


(1)
Message 803 of 877 (835366)
06-22-2018 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 800 by Faith
06-21-2018 11:23 PM


Re: Tectonic bashing and crashing
Hi Faith
You maybe do not understand the scale of what is required to speed up geologic processes to fit in the Flood year. The deduced movements of the tectonic plates forming and reforming supercontinents are known in good detail back 600,000,000 years and to a lesser degree much earlier. So an acceleration factor of many hundreds of million is required.
You cannot stretch tectonic movement out into recorded history because people would have noticed the earthquakes and volcanic effects.
It is not just the movements that have to be fitted in. There is the associated volcanism, and the laying down of sedimentary rocks formed from the products of now-eroded-away volcanoes.
Add in the fossils which have to be formed from animals and plants which show that continents now separated were once joined.
Don't forget the rapidly changing RA decay needed without cooking everything to produce the consistent RM dates; and madly oscillating magnetic pole reversals.
Would you like to know about the problems from large igneous provinces for YEC?
You really wish to cling to YEC but defending it is analogous to stopping a waterfall with a rake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 800 by Faith, posted 06-21-2018 11:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 805 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 11:35 AM Pollux has replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


(2)
Message 836 of 877 (835483)
06-23-2018 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 805 by Faith
06-23-2018 11:35 AM


Large Igneous provinces not a problem?
Large Igneous Provinces are the result of outflows of tens, hundreds, or thousands of thousands of cubic km of lava. i.e.10,000 to in the case of the Deccan and Siberian Traps several million each. Associated with the lava would be equally immense quantities of noxious gases such as H2S and SO2.
A fissure eruption from Laki on Iceland in 1783 produced 14 cubic km of lava in a few months, with the associated gases causing weather disruption over a lot of the Northern hemisphere.
Total lava eruption from all LIPs totals well in excess of 100,000,000 c km. So how long have we got to produce that in Faith's Flood Paradigm (FFP)? !0.000 Lakis a year for 1000 years? Or 100,000 a year for 100 years? Or 1,000,000 a year for 10 years? Without adding in the rest of the volcanism required at the same time in FFP, the effect would be noticeable, such as the extinction of most, if not all, life that survived the Flood, and there would be a visible record on the Earth.
Then there is the pesky habit radiometric ages have of being younger for the layers of lava that are on top compared to the lower, and sometimes erosion layers between successive flows which show there is significant time between flows.
Seems to me LIPs do provide a problem for FFP.
Standard geology spreads the development of LIPs over up to millions of years. The Siberian and Deccan Traps seem to have contributed to mass extinctions by way of weather and gas effects.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 805 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 11:35 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 838 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 10:29 PM Pollux has replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 839 of 877 (835486)
06-23-2018 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 838 by Faith
06-23-2018 10:29 PM


Re: Large Igneous provinces not a problem?
The presence and size of the LIPs are observable facts. Current Physics and Chemistry explain them. If they happened during or after the Flood, FFP has to postulate at least a time frame for them and a prediction of what effect they would produce in the geological record.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 838 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 10:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 841 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 10:47 PM Pollux has replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


(1)
Message 844 of 877 (835493)
06-23-2018 11:02 PM


Floodists problems
How much easier it was to be a Floodist 200 years ago. You just had to magic in water and then blow it away.
Since then you have had to explain :
- fossil order
- unconformities especially angular ones
- ice ages
- current flora and fauna distribution
- miraculously produce :
- Plate tectonics and explain all its associated problems
- Accelerated radioactive decay (which under FFP has to occur after the Flood finished) This has to be explained for the Sun, Moon , and stars also.
- disposal of the heat from accelerated RA decay
- a way that plate tectonics and RA decay change together so that it looks like long ages are shown. e.g. seamount chains
-probably others I can't think of at present.
Why would the Flood need accelerated plate tectonics and RA decay anyway?
It is such a pity for YEC that all problems vanish as soon as it is realised long time is involved.

Replies to this message:
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Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 845 of 877 (835494)
06-23-2018 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 841 by Faith
06-23-2018 10:47 PM


Re: Large Igneous provinces not a problem?
As I have previously said, the Seventh-day Adventist's Geoscience Research Institute admitted in 2010, not for the first time , that after more than 60 years trying they could not produce a model or mechanism that explained geology by YEC and the Flood.
I believe invisible pink unicorns dance on the ceiling above my bed. I am sure that one day I will be able to get evidence for them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 841 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 10:47 PM Faith has not replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 853 of 877 (835503)
06-24-2018 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 850 by Faith
06-23-2018 11:37 PM


CPT for 1000 years?
Because volcanism is an integral part of plate tectonics Edge's comment is pretty apt. But first, it is your hypothesis so you should make some testable prediction based on it. How fast are the plates moving?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 850 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 11:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 855 by Faith, posted 06-24-2018 8:19 AM Pollux has not replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 876 of 877 (835552)
06-24-2018 9:33 PM


Summary
A large part of current volcanism is related to Plate Tectonics. Large historical eruptions have had wide ranging catastrophic effects and have left discernible dust residues.
Flood models visualise a vastly speeded up rate of PT. The associated volcanism even if stretched over an historically impossible time of 1000 years would have such effects as to severely compromise all life on Earth, and would have left a massive deposit for any survivors to contemplate.

  
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