Summations Only

Typical deceit Paul. You just took a small quote out of context.

We're talking about water running across a huge plateau RAZD. A gigantic surface of the limestone layer now known as the Kaibab Plateau. It's been scoured off by the washing away of a couple of miles oif sedimentary layers that had been above it. Now it's a flat surface and the last of the draining Flood water is running across it. As its volume continues to decrease it breaks into rivers and streams instead of a sheet. Some of them probably join together to form the stream that forms the meander. The rest may exit into the main part of the canyon that is forming to the west, but it all eventually runs OFF the plateau following all the rest of the draining Flood water except the water that remains and becomes the Colorado River.I'm really sorry, I like diagrams but I really can't figure out what yours is trying to say. I wish I could.The way I picture this we are at the height of the Flood, we have thousands of square miles of sediments stacked one on top of another to a depth of three mjiles or so all underwater. All that can be seen in all directions is water. Then we get the tectonic upheaval that split the continents. It is a lateral movement three miles below the surface of the water. It is occurring all over the world. It creates the Great Unconformity all over the world. In the Grand Canyon area it tilts the Supergroup and pushed up the Kaibab Uplift from the Tapeats layer up through the three miles of layers. This is all connected to the beginning of the draining of the Flood waters. The Kaibab Uplift puts a strain on the uppermost sedimentary layers in the area that becomes the Grand Canyon. Cracks form in those layers. They start to break up. The water is starting to move, the cracks widen, chunks of the broken up strata are washing into the cracks as well as across what eventually becomes the Kaibab Plateau. At this point it woujld be hard to pinpoint the elevations you seem to be concerned about. The Kaibab limestone layer is about two miles beneath the uppermost strata that are starting to break up. At the same time the area to the north is breaking up too. The land is lifted way to the north so the water would be running north to south but also I think east to west, and forming what become the cliffs of the Grand Staircase. But back at the Grand Canyon area, the cracks have been widening, the layers are washing away, eventually we're down to the Kaibab level and we have a huge wide crack that the water is funning into which becomes the Grand Canyon. The water is also continuing to run over what becomes the Kaibab Plateau. If you can figure out where the higher and lower elevations are that woujd probably show the pattern followed by the water when it gets low enough for it to matter.The canyon is being widened where it eventually becomes widest. The water is coming mostly from north and east. To the east the receding water has wased off the surface of the kaibab limestone layer so that it is now a gigantic plateau. There is still a lot of water draining although most of it is gone by now. When it gets down to the level of the plateau it becomes a sheet. You could maybe tell me which direction it is flowing now but the elevation of the land is changing a lot because of the tectonic disturbance going on. The Rockies may already be starting to push up, creating higher ground in that direction; the Grand Staircase area is pushed up to the north so water would be flowing south from there, as well as west.We've got the huge expanse that's becoming the Kaibab Plateau now. If you look at the picture of the meander the water is carving those cliff like areas in the background, then it is moving into a very wide curve that forms the uppermost walls of the meander which I could indicate from one side of the picture to the other if I still had the Paint program I was used to. It's extremely broad. The water keeps decreasing in volume and continuing to follow the curve until it forms the meander we see. At this point the water is convined to this particular track in this area.The other streams just keep flowing until they run into the canyon at some other point. The land is still in upheaval because of the tectonic activity. Magma penetrates up through the layers at various points. It exits at the top of the Grand Staircase at its far north end. It spills over in the Grand Canyon at a much lower level because all the strata above have washed away.Etc etc etc.Whatever your diagram is trying to say I don't think it would change my scenario much because you are mapping the final result of a lot of processes going through a lot of stages before it got there. See above. They probably mostly got channeled into the Grand Canyon, It's where the tectonic upheaval pushed up the Kaibab Uplift which created the strain in the uppermost layers which caused the cracks in the strata which eventually became the canyon as the uppermost strata broke up and the water channeled into those widening cracks.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Thanks for the recommendation. I've actually read a lot of that Berkeley site over the years. In fact it was the main part of what got me started on the biological argument against evolution. But I appreciate knowing your assessment of the source.

I did't really intend this thyread to be about only the Jurassic period article or the Flood or anything strictly geological but I wasn't paying attention when it got promoted. I had more in mind collecting instances of dogmatic statements about both geological and evolutionary information without giving the evidence because I was frustrated with having run into both. When it finally dawned on me the thread was miscategorized and we were mostly talking about the Flood anyway I just introduced the evolution question as a "digression" because I really did want to have the information. But I didn't expect it to become the topic. And by that time I was getting frustrating with the thread itself anyway which often happens. So I have no idea what to do with it now.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

RAZD I can't SEE your diagram clearly enough. I can't even distinguish between the supposedly light green and dark green. The rest is glaringly white and the print is way too small. And the diagram you post here is almost invisible to my eyes.But I don't think your concern about elevation matters anyway as I went through my own scenario for you.

So let me see if I can rememberMy meander scenario is wrong because

• There isn't gravel where he would expect it to be
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• There isn't evidence of back flooding
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• There isn't evidence of sheet flow of water on the Kaibab plateau
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• There isn't evidence of turbulence where he'd expect it
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• There isn't an upper rim where the water level started out much higher, he says that was formed entirely by erosion after the water had reduced in volume. Same in the main part of the canyon: all the slopes were formed by erosion.

Might as well include the objection that my interpretation of the formation of the Great Unconformity is wrong too, because

• There is no evidence of shearing wherever he would expect to see that
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• There are pebbles in the contact, which I think are of schist? which he attirbtes to the former beach environment of the Tapeats sandstone.

That's all I can remember at the moment.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Of course, that's what I expected to be doing.

Nice video (Message 147), I'm enjoying it. I'm only a little over ten minutes into it but there are already a few things I'd like to comment on before the main point you want to make comes up.I was interested in the use of the calcium content of the garnets found in the Vishnu Schist to determine the height of the rock above it that had provided the pressure to form the scshist and the garnets, which they determined to have been six miles. Of course they were thinking of the supposed former mountains they imagine to have existed there before the canyon. The weight of the Paleozoic strata into which the canyon was cut has always been my explanation for the schist and the granite formed beneath the Great Unconformity, but that only comes to three miles, possibly four, not six. You know of course that I'm not giving that up in any case but it was interesting how they use the garnets.ABE: Since I think the schist formed as a result of the weight of the strata plus the heat from pressure plus volcanic activity and magma beneath the Great Unconformity, and the whole area would have been under water at the time, I suppose we could add some weight of the water to the rock as well and perhaps that would make up the difference to explain the amount of calcium in the garnets. Of course the strata would have been highly compacted but perhaps the water still contributed some weight, or even the water standing above the whole stack for that matter. A gallon of water weighs something over eight pounds. /'ABEAnd of course this nice geologist sketches out the time periods that divide rocks into former landscapes. Which is very clear in his presentastion: those rocks he really does describe as former landscapes right there on the spot, determined by the fossils in them, though others here seem to enjoy pretending Geology doesn't think any such thing.This is a time of vigorous eyeball-rolling for me of course as I contemplate again this notion that a slab of rock could represent an identifiable time covering millions of years. We mustn't insult the naked emperor scientists though, and after all they really do seem like a bunch of nice sincere people.And this nice geologist goes on to describe the supposed transgressions of the sea over the land that they say account for the sedimentary rocks, some eight of them, and the animation shows a layer of sand followed by a layer of mud followed by a layer of the calcified stuff that becomes limestone, all deposited apparently by precipitation out of the sea. Here I just want to point out that there's no mention of limestone having to grow in place, it is merely the result of deposited broken up shells. Just as I've said.So just a few thoughts before your main topic comes up.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Video in Message 147:At 11:50 or so he's saying that the Laramide Orogeny -- ie one aspect of that tectonic event I think was a major single event that split the continents and did a lot of other things I describe in my scenario +-- lifted up the land WITHOUT TILTING IT. So all you people who keep objecting to my saying that's what happened with the tectonic pressure that formed the Kaibab Uplift can stop saying it.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

They make a big difference to my theory of how the canyon formed.

So I saw it to the end. I kept having the feeling I'd seen it before; maybe parts of it showed up somewhere else, or maybe I did see it before but it must have been quite a while ago before I had the opinions I have now as fully worked out.Anyway. I don't buy the erosion theory to explain the great width of the canyon. Just a way to avoid the obvious explanation of the Flood it seems to me.The part about the lake as the possible cause of the canyon was interesting simply because it is so similar to some creationists' theories about how the canyon formed, by the draining of a large lake left standing after the Flood, called Hopi Lake in that case. same basic situation as Lakes Missoula and Lahontan and I forget the others offhand, also very large lakes left standing after the Flood and eventually draining. I think it's a reasonable interpretation but I like my own better. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Meanders don't form from sheets of water, they form from streama running across flat areas which I pretty clearly said more than once the sheet would have split into.

Land rose or water level dropped irrelevant nitpick. I said nothing about the velocity of the water, in fact I picture a rather lazy slow movement of a wide stream of water. How the canyon walls eroded is well known, and irrelevant since they have to have eroded quite a bit, producing the talus. The only question is whether the Flood originally cut the basic sloping shape or not, and that's also not important although I think it did and I gave a reasonable explanation for how it did.

Surely I have a right to my own theory. Or maybe not since this is Percy Land.

Who said it's on your video?: I know it's not and I didn't watch it because I know it's not because you don't understand one thing I'm saying.Even though I can't really study the map I answered the basic idea. As I described my scenario for RAZD it should have been clear that the elevations NOW in place had nothing whatever to do with how the canyon formed IN MY SCENARIO.This is tedious and boring since all you are doing is insisting that the standard establishment point of view is correct and if I don't accept it that means I son't understand it. Really tedious and boring.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.