Summations Only

Who said anything about a flash flood?

Why "massive?" At some point the water got down to the volume where streams running across the plateau could form a meander. We're talking about a great volume of water gradually decreasing. It's silly to think it couldn't have decreased to the point of forming a meander, given a huge flat area which is where meanders commonly form. It figures it would decrease to a sheet before becoming separated streams, that's the only reason for including a sheet, it's the natural transitional form from a larger volume of water to the right amount and shape to make meanders. Seems like you're arguing with a perfectly natural sequence for no good reason I can see except to find something to object to in anything I say..Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

By the way do you have any corrections you'd like to make to Message 151?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

What boulders are you talking about? I have no idea what form the broken up chunks of strata ended up in after being washed through the canyon -- but most of that would have gone over the sides lower in the canyon, not down the river from the upper part of the canyon. Why do you assume boulders? I honestly have no idea what you are talking about or what you are referring to in anything I've said. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Yes, I've been meaning to ask: what evidence is it that you expect to find for a sheet flow?

Yes I "still believe" the Geological Column is over and done with and that whatever sedimentary layers are forming anywhere now have nothing to do with it.Yes I believe it outlandishly absurd to think a layer of rock represents a time period.Boulders may fall on beaches all the time but that quartzite boulder buried in the Tapeats sandstone did not fall on any Tapeats beach. There was no Tapeats beach and the boulder was broken off by the tectonic motion at the end of the Flood that caused a massive sliding of rocks against each other.As for popular accounts of the historical sciences it's frustrated me from way back before I was a Chrsitian or a creationist that stories about evolution presented extraordinarily ancient times as flat out factual realities, especially when they imaginatively reconstructed the supposed living conditions of some extinct creature; and in those days I had no reason to disagree with any of it, it was just frustrating to be given such fiction in such a dogmatic way. NOW I suppose it's because I know it is all false that it particularly annoys me.Now, meaning for the last oh 25 years or so, on trips where I've seen those signs telling me this or that geological formation is so many millions of years old I laugh and roll my eyes. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

One thing that made no sense in the video was the idea that the river carries away the debris from the erosion that is the explanation given for for the widening of the canyon. Since the river only runs in one narrow path through that wide area, which is some eighteen miles at its widest, how is it going to pick up the debris over that whole area?

It is so wearying dealing with this constant refusal to grasp what I'm saying. What I'm saying is SO simple. A tsunami is a wall of water not a thin sheet running across a flat plain.Here's what I'm picturing again: By the time the water is at that stage in my scenario, which I thought I described pretty clearly so that any nonsense about a tsunami would be clearly inapplicable, the Flood is almost completely drained away. Anything like tsunami stage is long since past. I'm simply trying to picture the stages it would have gone through to supply just the right amount of water for it to meander as streams do across flat plains. I don't even care if it ever becomes a sheet, I'm just trying to picture the likely stages to get it to the meander stage and a thin sheet seemed like a likely stage, but it doesn't matter.The flat plateau is there after all the strata above have been washed away and now there's still some water running across it, a lot of it I'm figuring having already exited over the sides of the opening canyon . The Kaibab plateau is a large flat limestone area to the north of the canyon running east to west along it for some distance. Meanders form on flat surfaces and Marble canyon in somewhere in that area.After the water of the Flood has mostly disappeared there's still a stream there to form the meander. It is really not hard to account for these features in the Flood scenario. There is no point in making up conditions that would prevent it such as your tsunami scenario since there is no need for anything like that to be happening. The water drains away, a long crack is becoming a canyon into which a lot of the water has flowed already, and cut it out to some width to the west, a thin sheet of water becomes thin streams that form a meander to the east that becomes a river that runs through the canyon,. All I can do is imagine how it could have happened. If something doesn't work then something else will.Just for reference here's a satellite image of the area showing the Kaibab plateau on the north side of the canyon. Incidentally on the south side the Kaibab limestone was washed away leaving the Coconino sandstone called the Coconino plateau. Such broad expanses of sedimentary rock certainly suggest to me the washing effect of a lot of water. So The Flood washed down to the Kaibab limestone on the north side and down to the Coconino on the south.:And if Marble Canyon isn't strictly on the Kaibab Plateau, who cares, for a meander to form there has to be a flat plain one way or another. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

They'd have to roll at least nine miles to get to the river if the river ran through the middle of it, and if you look at that area of the canyon it's full of buttes and other mounds of eroding strata that would make it difficult for any rock falling off the outer wall to get anywhere near the river even if it was all downhill. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Sure, streams will work, thanks.

I did watch the video finally, yes. I'd seen many like it before. That is not a thin sheet of water, that is a battering ram of water that picks up and carries vehicles and boats and houses. A thin sheet would be a few inches at most.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

OK but that is not shown on the photo. I'm interested in the fact that there are these two separate flat surface areas on either side of the canyon, where one of the geo column layers in each case was exposed over a large area. Yes, or in my scenario what was left after a couple of miles of sedimentary layers above it washed off. And in my scenario that's because they are wet and higher and less compacted. I agree, I just think it got to that point by a different process than you do. And I'm not sure why you don't describe the Coconino plateau in similar terms since it forms quite a large plateau as well.By the way is the Kaibab Uplift the same as the Kaibab Plateau?I realized the plateau rises toward the canyon so I can't have a meander running across it. I have to rethink the meander because it apparently isn't in the Kaibab plateau but farther to the east, on the other side of the Kaibab monocline. It still has to be formed by water running across a plateau but not the same location, and I can't find a clear reference to that area. I'm trying to look at RAZD's diagram but truly it is hard for me to make out what's on it. It looks like areas marked out by a heavy dark line but what areas I can't tell.

I am looking at your diagram and I think I get the gist but I really can't distinguish light from dark green. All the drawn-in lines just look like thick dark lines. But I get the general idea that the arrows mark lower areas where you'd expect water to run while the circles areas are higher. I've been trying to figure out exactly where the Kaibab uplift occurred because as I've been putting it all together it was the formation of that uplift that cracked the strata that started the canyon forming. .We start with sedimentary layers stacked two miles above the current canyon rim, still underwater. Tectonic upheaval occurs pushing a lot of rocks around at least three miles below the surface of the water at this point.This pushes up the land called the Kaibab Uplift, and I suppose the whole Colorado Plateau is also being pushed up, but the Kaibab uplift is the higher area into which the Grand Canyon is cut. Its rising puts strain on the uppermost strata which are less consolidated than the lower strata - the deeper you go the more compaction you get. So now we've got the whole stack being pushed up in this one area and cracks form in the upper layers.The tectonic movement coincides with the start of the draining of the Flood, maybe because of the sea floor dropping as some have suggested. The water level starts going down. But it's a pretty slow process, takes five months or so as I recall to completely drain away.As it starts draining the uppermost layers break up. Maybe they are mostly loose sediment at this point. The sides of the cracks formed over the Kaibab Uplift fall inward into the cracks as they widen. After a while there is a pretty wide crack there or maybe many cracks, whose sides are falling inward. At some point the water starts moving laterally toward the deepening sea. Strata start to be exposed but they are still not compacted enough to hold together very well so they keep breaking up and now start washing with the draining flood water toward the oceans. The cracks over the Kaibab Uplift keep widening and falling into themselves as it were.The strata are harder, more compacted, the lower we go, they become chunks breaking up instead of loose sediments. Chunks are falling into the crack over the Kaibab Uplift causing even greater widening. After some time, a month? Two months? we are down to the level of the Kaibab limestone and it's pretty well compacted from the weight that had been above it. a very wide crack has formed on the south side of the Kaibab Uplift which keeps widening as water is running all around and past it and through it and so on headed to lower areas wherever they are. We're still mostly looking at an expanse of water everywhere though strata to the north in the Grand Staircase area are holding together better though breaking up into cliffs and that should be visible, but overall it's a lot of water still, it's just lower now and it's moving in various directions. As it keeps getting lower the cracks widen and eventually form the canyon. The Kaibab plateau becomes visible, and the Coconino plateau and the bottom of the crack becomes a channel for a lot of stuff that keeps the canyon widening and stuff falling into it. The rim is higher than the land around but there's enough debris=laden water channeling into it to keep it forming.Something like that. I think it's because the uplift created crackis for the water to flow into creating the canyon that the water went there, but it would also have drained in the direct of the arrows at the same time. The Kaibab Plateau is bordered on the east by the Kaibab monocline down which which water would flow east. I don't know what's going on in the Coconino plateau area. Well, this is what I've got so far.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

It figures you'd have to do something to make the situation somewheat less absurd. But the fact remains that you've got a huge flat slab of rock covering a huge area where you thnk there used to be an ancient landscape with ancient forms of living things, and that is impossible.

Why would you assume the chunks of strata I attribute to the first statges of the receding Flood woulb be those bouldersz? The point is the sediments were probably too soft to form boulders at that stage. I do't know where you are getting this? The earliest broken up strata were probably just loose sediments. You probably wouldn't get boulders for a few years. As I understand it compaction alone can make a very hard rock, but I slso think chemical lithification doesn't take anywhere near as long as is usually supposed.