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Author Topic:   Motley Flood Thread (formerly Historical Science Mystification of Public)
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1558 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 721 of 877 (835194)
06-19-2018 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 719 by PaulK
06-19-2018 1:23 PM


Re: subjective interpretation
According to you all that was ruined to form those features was featureless horizontal sediment full of dead things. Hardly perfect. According to you it was not the Flood but the run-off from it that carved these features, even when it makes no sense at all. The Grand Canyon with its sinuous form being a prime example.
Weird. All I'm talking about is what the world looks like now, and it looks ruined to me almost everywhere I look. Of course I live on a desert but I also see it in cliffs and rocky beaches and craggy mountains and really just about everywhere. Perhaps someone else might see what I mean. The strata full of dead things are just one facet of what the Flood did; why would you think I consider that "perfect" anyway? THAT makes no sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 719 by PaulK, posted 06-19-2018 1:23 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 725 by ringo, posted 06-19-2018 2:11 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 726 by PaulK, posted 06-19-2018 2:31 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1558 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 722 of 877 (835196)
06-19-2018 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 718 by Percy
06-19-2018 1:09 PM


Re: Strata eroded or deformed in blocks proves Geo Column / Time Scale over and done with
Well I read enough of your post to know I have no interest in answering any of it. I'm at the point where I sometimes repeat some things because I don't want them to get lost but otherwise disagree with so much of the nonsense here I don't have any interest in addressing it any more except for that purpose, to keep certain ideas on the table that I take seriously even in the teeth of the craziness here. Every now and then I may have something more to say. Meanwhile sorry but that's the way it is these days.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 718 by Percy, posted 06-19-2018 1:09 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 759 by Percy, posted 06-20-2018 9:30 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22695
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 723 of 877 (835197)
06-19-2018 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 678 by Faith
06-17-2018 5:40 PM


Re: Strata eroded or deformed in blocks proves Geo Column / Time Scale over and done withIf
Faith writes:
If it's invisible it isn't evidence of erosion.
It's a pretty solid sign that someone has no response then they post an 8 word response repeating their lame claim to a detailed 538 word message.
The evidence for erosion is not invisible. I already excerpted a description of the erosion at the base contact of the Kaibab with the Toroweap. Didn't you read it? Here are the USGS descriptions of other unconformable contacts between strata at the Grand Canyon. You can find the links to this information for each layer at Stratigraphy of Grand Canyon National Park:
  • Supergroup/Tapeats: unconformity
    quote:
    Unconformable contact with underlying Middle and Late Proterozoic surface that forms the Great Unconformity. The Tapeats fills in lowland areas and thins across or pinches out against young Proterozoic highlands.
  • Muav Limestone/Temple Butte: unconformity
    quote:
    Unconformity at base of unit represents major stratigraphic break in Paleozoic rock record in the Grand Canyon, spanning part of Late Cambrian, all of Ordovician and Silurian, and most of Early and Middle Devonian time, about 100 million years.
  • Muav Limestone/Redwall Limestone: unconformity
    The Temple Butte overlies the Muav Limestone, but at many points the Temple Butte pinches out, and in those place the Muav Limestone is overlain by the Redwall Limestone. This is from the Wikipedia entry on the Muav Limestone:
    quote:
    Underlies Redwall Limestone (Mississippian). Locally underlies Temple Butte Limestone (Devonian) that fills narrow paleovalleys cut into the unconformity separating the Redwall Limestone from Muav Limestone.
    In other words, the Temple Butte Limestone often exists as fill-in of paleovalleys that were eroded into the Muav Limestone at its contact with the overlying Redwall Limestone.
  • Surprise Canyon Formation/Supai Group: unconformity
    quote:
    Purple shale and mudstone of lower slope unit unconformably overlies the gray Redwall in majority of map area.
  • Formations within the Supai: unconformity at top of each
    Manakacha Formation:
    quote:
    Unconformable erosional contact between the Manakacha and underlying Watahomigi Formation approximately marked at base of lower sandstone cliff of the Manakacha; erosional relief generally less than 3 ft (1 m) and wavy unconformable surface.
    Wescogame Formation:
    quote:
    Unconformable contact with underlying Manakacha Formation marked by unconformity of erosion channels as much as 80 ft (24 m) deep in western part of map area, and less than 30 ft (10 m) deep in eastern part of map area. Channels commonly filled with limestone/chert conglomerate.
    Esplanade Sandstone:
    quote:
    Unconformable contact with underlying Wescogame Formation marked by erosion channels as much as 50 ft (15 m) deep filled with limestone conglomerate; average channel depth about 35 ft (11 m).
  • Supai Group/Hermit Shale: unconformity
    quote:
    Unconformably overlies Esplanade Sandstone. Dark-red, platy, thin-bedded siltstone of Hermit Formation fills channels as much as 60 ft (16 m) deep eroded into the underlying Esplanade in eastern part of map area, and as much as 130 ft (40 m) deep in Havasu Canyon area, south-central part of map area. Erosional relief is generally less than 10 ft (3 m) in northeastern part of map area.
  • Hermit Shale/Coconino Sandstone: unconformity
    quote:
    Unconformable contact with underlying Hermit Formation is sharp planar, with relief generally less than 3 ft (1 m) but locally as much as 8 ft (2.5 m). Desiccation cracks in the Hermit, as much as 2 ft (0.05 m) wide and 12 ft (4 m) deep, are filled with tan sandstone of the Toroweap or Coconino, mainly in eastern third of map area.
  • Coconino Sandstone/Toroweap Formation: unconformity
    quote:
    Sharp gradational contact with the interbedded Coconino where crossbedded sand dunes of the Coconino were beveled off and sand was redistributed as flat-bedded sandstone. The Coconino intertongues with lower part of the Seligman in western third of map area.
  • Toroweap Formation/Kaibab Limestone: unconformity
    quote:
    Unconformable contact with underlying Woods Ranch Member of Toroweap Formation attributed to solution erosion and channel erosion; average relief about 10 ft (3 m). Some channels have eroded as much as 150 ft (45 m) into the Woods Ranch in western half of map area. Erosion channels were filled with sandy cherty limestone typical of the Fossil Mountain, providing an extra thickness of the Fossil Mountain.
  • Kaibab Limestone/Moenkopi Formation: unconformity
    From The Kaiparowits Region, a Geographic and Geologic Reconnaissance of Parts of Utah and Arizona:
    quote:
    At most places the relief of the eroded Kaibab is small; it was channeled but not deeply incised, and the lowest Moenkopi beds maintain the dip and strike of the highest strata of the Kaibab. At Spring Mountain, Nev., however, the entire thickness of the Kaibab and part of the Supai was cut through, and in the Moab region the Moenkopi rests with sharp discordance on the Cutler.
Five of these unconformities are erosional - the erosion is definitely visible. Unconformities falsify your idea of continuous deposition, and erosional unconformities are visibly undeniable evidence. Angular unconformities falsify your idea that no deformation of strata occurred until all strata were deposited.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Add entry for Redwall Limestone/Muav Limestone contact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 678 by Faith, posted 06-17-2018 5:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 724 by Faith, posted 06-19-2018 2:06 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1558 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 724 of 877 (835198)
06-19-2018 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 723 by Percy
06-19-2018 1:59 PM


Re: Strata eroded or deformed in blocks proves Geo Column / Time Scale over and done withIf
I'm talking about contacts where there is no visible sign whatever of a layer that is assumed to have been there and eroded away based on belief in the Time Scale and not based on actual evidence. If there is some of that layer present that's a different situation. Why are you going on about this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 723 by Percy, posted 06-19-2018 1:59 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 751 by Percy, posted 06-20-2018 7:05 AM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 725 of 877 (835200)
06-19-2018 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 721 by Faith
06-19-2018 1:45 PM


Re: subjective interpretation
Faith writes:
The strata full of dead things are just one facet of what the Flood did; why would you think I consider that "perfect" anyway?
God did it, so in your world death must be a good thing.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 721 by Faith, posted 06-19-2018 1:45 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 739 by edge, posted 06-19-2018 8:42 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 726 of 877 (835201)
06-19-2018 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 721 by Faith
06-19-2018 1:45 PM


Re: subjective interpretation
quote:
Weird. All I'm talking about is what the world looks like now, and it looks ruined to me almost everywhere I look.
There’s nothing weird in pointing out that your subjective impressions are misleading.
quote:
The strata full of dead things are just one facet of what the Flood did; why would you think I consider that "perfect" anyway? THAT makes no sense
It it is implicit in what YOU said. The features you take as evidence of ruin were - in your view - carved from those strata, not from features of the pre-Flood world.
So when you say:
All of it speaks to me of something that was formerly perfect now ruined
You must bear in mind that the thing ruined by the erosive forces that created the Monuments and all the other things you list was the strata full of dead things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 721 by Faith, posted 06-19-2018 1:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 729 by Faith, posted 06-19-2018 3:32 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 785 by Faith, posted 06-21-2018 12:47 AM PaulK has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5987
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 727 of 877 (835202)
06-19-2018 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 707 by Faith
06-18-2018 9:14 PM


Re: Strata eroded or deformed in blocks proves Geo Column / Time Scale over and done with
... , and you believe a reptile ear can evolve into a mammalian ear, ...
Yet again you babble complete and utter nonsense. GO TO A LIBRARY!
On CompuServe I met a very rare critter, an honest creationist. One of the reasons that honest creationists are so rare is that they soon learn how utterly false creationist claims are. In his case, within a year he was arguing against creationist claims.
From his Did We Evolve? page in which he did the honest thing, he researched the fossil record on the evolution of the mammalian ear:
quote:
Years ago I was fighting the good fight of creation on the Internet. I argued that evolution was impossible, for it required that the genetic code had to be changed to make new kinds of animals. It did not seem feasible to me that evolution could do this. I argued in the CompuServe debate forum, basing my arguments on Michael Denton's Evolution: A Theory in Crises. My favorite illustration was the difference between mammals and reptiles. The differences between living mammals and reptiles are substantial. Mammals all have hair, mammary glands, a four-chambered heart, and the distinct mammalian ear, with three little bones inside. These features are found in no living reptiles. I argued that this is because there is no viable intermediate between the two, that an animal could have either the reptile genetic code or the mammal code but could not be in the middle.
An evolutionist disagreed with me. He told me that in the past there had been many intermediates. He said that there were animals that, for instance, had jaw and ear bones that were intermediate between reptiles and mammals. How did he know this? He gave a reference to an essay in Stephen Gould's Ten Little Piggies . I wrote back that since the local library had a large collection of children's book, I should be able to find that book. (I thought I was so funny). I borrowed the book, and found an interesting account of how bones in the reptile jaw evolved and changed through millions of years to become the mammals' ear. That sounded like such a clever tale. How could Gould believe it? Perhaps he made it up. But there was one little footnote, a footnote that would change my life. It said simply, "Allin, E. F. 1975. Evolution of the Mammalian Middle Ear. Journal of Morphology 147:403-38." That's it. That's all it said. But it was soon to have a huge impact on me. You see, I had developed this habit of looking things up, and had been making regular trips to the University of Pennsylvania library. I was getting involved in some serious discussions on the Internet, and was finding the scientific journals to be a reliable source of information. Well, I couldn't believe that a real scientific journal would take such a tale seriously, but, before I would declare victory, I needed to check it out.
On my next trip to the university, I found my way to the biomedical library and located the journal archives. I retrieved the specified journal, and started to read. I could not believe my eyes. There were detailed descriptions of many intermediate fossils. The article described in detail how the bones evolved from reptiles to mammals through a long series of mammal-like reptiles. I paged through the volume in my hand. There were hundreds of pages, all loaded with information. I looked at other journals. I found page after page describing transitional fossils. More significantly, there were all of those troublesome dates. If one arranged the fossils according to date, he could see how the bones changed with time. Each fossil species was dated at a specific time range. It all fit together. I didn't know what to think. Could all of these fossil drawings be fakes? Could all of these dates be pulled out of a hat? Did these articles consist of thousands of lies? All seemed to indicate that life evolved over many millions of years. Were all of these thousands of "facts" actually guesses? I looked around me. The room was filled with many bookshelves; each was filled with hundreds of bound journals. Were all of these journals drenched with lies? Several medical students were doing research there. Perhaps some day they would need to operate on my heart or fight some disease. Was I to believe that these medical students were in this room filled with misinformation, and that they were diligently sorting out the evolutionist lies while learning medical knowledge? How could so much error have entered this room? It made no sense.
How can you explain those mysterious mammal-like reptiles? Reptiles and mammals today are quite distinct from each other. Mammalian features include differentiated teeth (incisors, canines, premolars, molars), double rooted teeth, a distinct jaw joint, three bones in the ear (stapes, incus, malleus), the diaphragm, limbs under the body, a different arrangement of toe bones, and a braincase that is firmly attached to the skull. No reptile has these features. But when we look at fossils, we find a strange series of animals with features in the middle. They begin 300 Ma (million years ago) in the Pennsylvanian. It was a different world. There were no mammals, flowering plants, or even dinosaurs. According to the fossil record, these would all come later. The world belonged to amphibians and reptiles. Early Synapsids such as Haptodus appeared. Their dentary jaw bones rose in the place where later animals would have a new jaw joint--the mammalian joint. Then advanced pelycosaurs (270 Ma) like the Dimetrodon--those familiar sail-winged animals from your childhood dinosaur set--had signs of a bony prong for the eardrum. Later, cynodonts like the Procynosuchus (236 Ma) had jawbones more similar to mammals, but they still had the reptile's jaw hinge. The Probainognathus (238 Ma) and the Thrinaxodons (227 Ma) have signs of two distinct jaw joints, the reptilian and the mammalian. This allowed some of the bones that had been part of the reptile's jaw to transmit vibrations to the ear. This was the beginning of the special mammalian ear bones. By the time the Sinoconodon appears (208 Ma) the mammalian jaw joint predominates, and the reptilian jaw joint is small. The Morganucodon (205 Ma) has teeth like a mammal, a distinct mammalian jaw joint, and only a tiny remnant of the reptile's jaw. It's malleus and incus ear bones remain attached to the jaw. By the late Cretaceous period (80 Ma) early placental mammals like the Asioryctes had jaws and ears that were transformed to the mammalian type. Two of the reptile's jaw bones, the quadrate and the articular were no longer part of the jaw. Instead they had become the malleus and incus, and are functioning as parts of the mammal's ear.
This is only the briefest of overviews of these strange creatures. In reality, there are thousands of species that span many millions of years, with many intermediate stages of many different features.
Go to the library! Learn something! Stop clinging so desperately to your ignorance. Ignorance does not work!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 707 by Faith, posted 06-18-2018 9:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 728 by Faith, posted 06-19-2018 3:25 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1558 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 728 of 877 (835203)
06-19-2018 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 727 by dwise1
06-19-2018 2:42 PM


Re: Strata eroded or deformed in blocks proves Geo Column / Time Scale over and done with
The incremental changes necessary between any of the reptilian forms and any of the mammalian forms are astronomically impossible. I base this on the fossil ear designs that have bgeen presented here, the differences between them requiring incremental changes that could not possibly happn on the trial and error basis that would have to lead from one to the other. The so-called transitionals are, first of all, nowhere near the number required even according to Darwin to show evolution from one species to another, but 2) they are not transitionals but variations on one Kind that are built into the genome. Huge variations are possible through the mere built-in genetic material that couldn't possibly evolve from one to another by incremental changes through the trial and error method even given hundreds of millions of years. The design has to be there or it can't happen, and the design exists only in the genome of a particular Kind. I understand how persuasive this poor creationist found all that evolutionist material but he was duped, as are the evolutionists.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 727 by dwise1, posted 06-19-2018 2:42 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 736 by dwise1, posted 06-19-2018 4:42 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1558 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 729 of 877 (835204)
06-19-2018 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 726 by PaulK
06-19-2018 2:31 PM


Re: subjective interpretation
Communication here is so absurdly impossible even the Twilight Zone doesn't express it.
Nobody has a clue what the preFlood world actually was like so I can't possibly be saying exactly WHAT was ruined, all I know is that this world looks like a gigantic wreck. That's all I'm saying. The strata are a clue to the Flood that did it, there is no evidence left anywhere of what the original Creation was really like since all its parts have been scattered.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 726 by PaulK, posted 06-19-2018 2:31 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 730 by jar, posted 06-19-2018 3:40 PM Faith has replied
 Message 731 by PaulK, posted 06-19-2018 3:40 PM Faith has replied
 Message 754 by Percy, posted 06-20-2018 7:59 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 730 of 877 (835205)
06-19-2018 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 729 by Faith
06-19-2018 3:32 PM


Re: subjective interpretation
Of course we know what the pre-flood world was like since there is ample evidence of even what the pre-Eden world was like.
Faith you are simply posting utter nonsense. We have casts and fossils and pollen and lots and lots of evidence where all you have is the dogma of your Cult.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 729 by Faith, posted 06-19-2018 3:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 733 by Faith, posted 06-19-2018 3:51 PM jar has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 731 of 877 (835206)
06-19-2018 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 729 by Faith
06-19-2018 3:32 PM


Re: subjective interpretation
quote:
Communication here is so absurdly impossible even the Twilight Zone doesn't express it.
I realise that your problems understanding opposing viewpoints and your revisionism get in the way of communication. Maybe you should do something about that.
quote:
Nobody has a clue what the preFlood world actually was like so I can't possibly be saying exactly WHAT was ruined, all I know is that this world looks like a gigantic wreck. That's all I'm saying.
But the features you point to AREN’T ruined perfection. All you have is a subjective impression divorced even from your own ideas of what actually happened. That is not evidence. Yet you claim that it is. That is the point that you are failing to get.
quote:
The strata are a clue to the Flood that did it,
The strata are proof that the Flood didn’t do it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 729 by Faith, posted 06-19-2018 3:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 732 by Faith, posted 06-19-2018 3:50 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1558 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 732 of 877 (835207)
06-19-2018 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 731 by PaulK
06-19-2018 3:40 PM


Re: subjective interpretation
There is no evidence left of the perfection of the original Creation, I'm assuming it. What I actually see is wreckage, period.
And the strata certainly are evidence of the Flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 731 by PaulK, posted 06-19-2018 3:40 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 734 by PaulK, posted 06-19-2018 4:03 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 738 by edge, posted 06-19-2018 8:38 PM Faith has replied
 Message 746 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-20-2018 2:15 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1558 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 733 of 877 (835208)
06-19-2018 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 730 by jar
06-19-2018 3:40 PM


Re: subjective interpretation
pollen and fossils are evidence of the pre-Flood world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 730 by jar, posted 06-19-2018 3:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 735 by jar, posted 06-19-2018 4:09 PM Faith has replied
 Message 757 by Percy, posted 06-20-2018 8:13 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 734 of 877 (835209)
06-19-2018 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 732 by Faith
06-19-2018 3:50 PM


Re: subjective interpretation
quote:
There is no evidence left of the perfection of the original Creation, I'm assuming it. What I actually see is wreckage, period.
You call it wreckage but according to your own views the prior condition was hardly superior. You might as well call it sculpture as wreckage. Not to mention that there is quite a lot of the planet that doesn’t looked wrecked, and parts that are mainly wrecked through human activity.
quote:
And the strata certainly are evidence of the Flood.
That’s been shown to be false. That is why you have to deny most of the erosion between the strata, make up nonsense to try to explain angular unconformities, claim that strata are paralell when they are close to orthogonal, reject all scientific dating methods, call the order in the fossil record an illusion and so on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 732 by Faith, posted 06-19-2018 3:50 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 735 of 877 (835210)
06-19-2018 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 733 by Faith
06-19-2018 3:51 PM


evidence based reasoning
And fossils and trees and fossil rain drops and air samples and water samples.
Faith, the evidence that there was never a Biblical Flood or Fall and that the Earth is old is absolutely conclusive and overwhelming.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 733 by Faith, posted 06-19-2018 3:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 743 by Faith, posted 06-19-2018 9:12 PM jar has replied

  
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