Christianity and the End Times

Firstly on this whole thing the Christian church has always said that Jesus was wholly man and wholly God, and then very often ignored the wholly man part. I understand how people come to the conclusion that Jesus had supernatural knowledge of the future and remembers times before His birth where He was with the Father. But I just don’t get that from the scriptures.
Yes I’m Trinitarian in my beliefs but I don’t see the divinity of Jesus in His life but through the what God has done with the resurrection. I largely understand His divinity metaphorically through the accounts of the Son of Man in Daniel 7 and through John 1 where John writes that the Word becme flesh.
On that basis I Jesus’ understand eschatological message to be about the renewal of all things at the end of time. At that point it would be clear to all creation that Jesus has been established by God as Lord of all creation.
Here is a chapter from the book of Mark that is often used to portray eschatological or end times theology.
Mark 13

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1 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!
2 Do you see all these great buildings? replied Jesus. Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately,
4 Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?
5 Jesus said to them: Watch out that no one deceives you.
6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many.
7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.
9 You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them.
10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.
11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
12 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death.
13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’standing where itoes not belonglet the reader understandthen let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
15Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out.
16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.
17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
18 Pray that this will not take place in winter,
19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until nowand never to be equaled again.
20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it.
22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.
24 But in those days, following that distress, ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
26 At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
28 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door.
30Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
31Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
32 But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
33 Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come.
34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35 Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come backwhether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn.
36If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping.
37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’

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This is not an eschatological message. This is a political message. Jesus was very much opposed to the Jewish revolutionaries who were ascending in strength in those days. It was clear to at least Jesus that if they didn't stop going down the revolutionary route that there would be tremendous suffering and great political upheaval. All this did happen in 70AD as the result of a Jewish revolution, within the life time of some of the folks Jesus would have been talking to. I don’t see that this is the result of Jesus having supernatural knowledge of the future. I simply see it as Jesus be aware of and understanding the situation at the time. He warns against messianic leaders who would lead them down this path of destruction.When Jesus says, But in those days, following that distress, ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. He is talking about great political upheaval. It is a bit like saying that somebody celebrated a landslide victory. We would know that there was no actual land slide involved.Certainly Jesus had an eschatological message but it is something of an open question as to whether the end of time refers to something happening to all of creation, (boy I’m going to be in trouble with Faith here  ), or to us individually when we die. Personally, in opposition to most Christian scholars that I have read I’m inclined more towards the latter position.I agree that the first disciples including Paul probably expected Christ’s return in their lifetimes, but it was no different then than it is now, with Faith expecting it to happen in the near future. People have always looked on the dark sides of things and figure that it’s about time to shut the project down.Edited by GDR, : typo

This argument about time and language maybe is missing a major point. The Gospels are really compilations of earlier material whether it be Q or not. Here is the first couple of verses of Luke, one of the synoptic Gospels.

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Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

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So, obviously the writers of the Gospels were not using original material but were using what had been previously recorded and quite likely translating it into Greek. Luke even mentions that others have used the material that had been handed down to them which makes it very reasonable to assume that the other Gospels are, like Luke, compilations of material recorded by the eyewitnesses and the first Jesus followers.Edited by GDR, : typos

I even gave you the quote from Luke where he says quite clearly that it came from previous sources, and those sources came from eyewitnesses of the events and/or early followers.I also say thank you Lord for the Christian scholars who can make sense of the Scriptures in their historical context, so that we don't twist them into something they were ever intended to be by 21st century readers with only a 21st century understanding of language.

OK. Let's look at what Luke says.

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Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

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He clearly states that others have written up accounts, (likely the other synoptic Gospels included), "JUST" as they were handed down by the eyewitnesses and the first Jesus followers. He carefully investigated everything from the beginning so that he could write an orderly account. It is likely he used his own wording or he may have copied verbatim the earlier material but that isn't the point.I would add that some discount the Gospel accounts as they were written later in the first century but the material in the Gospels comes from much earlier accounts.

What i can't understand is why you are arguing against Luke being a compilation of previous material. Luke was written decades after the resurrection. If it was all original material out of his own head it would have far less credibility than if it is taken, (which he says it is) from something recorded by eyewitnesses and the first Jesus followers. It doesn't argue against your belief that the Bible is inerrant.

I've never heard anyone question the fact that the writer of Luke and Acts traveled with Paul. It is pretty much agreed that Paul was executed in the mid 60's. The general consensus seems to be that Luke was written sometime after 80AD, but I agree that it could have been anytime after Paul's death. At the very least then it would have been more than 30 years after the crucifixion.He clearly indicates that he used the testimonies, written or oral, of eyewitnesses and early Jesus followers and then carefully validated them before doing his best to put them in chronological order.He may himself have been an eyewitness, but if that is the case then it is very strange that he doesn't include himself with the eyewitnesses that he references. I think it is safe to say that he wasn't an eyewitness. Also it is generally conceded that Luke was a gentile or possibly a Hellenic Jew and wouldn't have been in Judea at the time of the resurrection.There is the strong possibilty that Luke would have been with Paul during Paul's sojourns back to Israel where he would have spent time with people like Peter and James, gathering and validating the material in the Gospel.The fact that he as a gentile or Hellenic Jew became a Christ follower after listening to the eyewitnesses and Paul for that matter, is very supportive of the validity of his message.If it was strictly wriotten out of his own head it would have far less validity IMHO.

I thought that was the point I was trying to make. Luke wasn't an eyewitness but used accounts both oral and written by eyewitnesses and early Jesus followers to compile the Gospel. I think we are in agreement. Just as you are subjectively criticizing them. Also, I would add that various scholars are far apart on many issues. You can't lump them all into a like-thinking group. I might also add that it might be an idea to listen to Biblical scholars whose views may differ greatly as opposed to non-scholars whose views also may differ greatly. It is a faith and not a science.As far as I know, I'm the only one whose theology is 100% correct.

How about this quote from Luke chap 6.

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37 Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned.

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By focusing on who is in and who is out completely misses the point of Christ's message. Jesus' message was clear. It is all about love of God and His goodness and love of our neighbour. We choose lives that are based on love of self even at the expense of others, or iove of others even at the expense of the self.I suggest that we should stop worrying about whether we are saved or not and get on with spreading God's gift of love to our neighbours, and let God worry about who is in or out. Once again just follow what is in my signature.Frankly I'm not feeling the love.

I recently read a very good book on this subject. The writer holds a PHD in philosophy and religious studies from McGill, (Montreal) and, as well masters degrees in humanities, social sciences from the University of Toronto and a math degree as well. He has written a book called Freedom All the Way Up in which he talks about God creating a world using randomness with enough possible outcomes that allows for a sufficiently high degree of probability that given sufficient times it would produce creatures capable of choosing agapic love.I found his argument quite compelling.Here is a quote from this web site. Randomness in Creration and God's Plan for Agape Love

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The physical-chemical processes of this Creation, which employ a continuous interplay between randomness, order, and emergent complexity, do not permit total predictability, such as predicting every specific neural pathway for every type of agape-capable being that will ever emerge on every possible eco-niche in the universe. Only a system without randomness could provide such deterministic predictability, but such predictability and control is not God’s objective. Rather, God has created the physical-chemical system we experience in our universe, with its particular balance of randomness, order, emergent complexity, laws, regularities, and probabilities, because it provides just what God desires, namely, a process by which beings with neurophysiological agape-capabilities and meaning-making capabilities would emerge through convergence and multiple realizability. This process provided God with a degree of predictive resolution such that God foreknew, from God’s design of the initial conditions of the universe(s), that many possible routes could come about to provide agapic neurophysiological capabilities, and that one or more of these would actually come about (through asymptotic probability over sufficient time), without needing to predict which actual routes would come about. This is the heart of the probability component of the agape/probability account.

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I have to admit that as a Christian I find this whole discussion very discouraging. Jesus said that He didn't know when the Father would do whatever it was that the Father would do, yet here you are trying to suggest that you can figure it out when Jesus couldn't. Paul tells us that we shouldn't judge, as if we do we will be judged. Why not just let God do what He is going to do and instead focus on what we are called to do and it is very simple.We are called to love others as we love ourselves. We are called to humble kindness and justice. Essentially we are called to love sacrificially and to reflect God's love into the world which He created, and even gave us the Holy Spirit to be with us in that, and yet here is another case of humans trying to insert themselves into God's business.

Absolutely. For that matter all four Gospels are compilations of previous material either written or through the oral tradition as passed on from the disciples and eye witnesses. (Just read the start of Luke’s Gospel.) I don’t think that either of these conclusions are correct depending on what you mean by Second Coming.Jesus had a very political message for His fellow Jews and by extension for the world. He often referred to Himself in the third person and usually it was to refer to Himself as the Son of Man. The question then is why that and not Messiah even though He clearly saw Himself as just that. The answer to that question is clearly in Daniel 7, a relatively recent prophet. Daniel 7 writes this:

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13 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

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In this we can see a number of things. Firstly it says that Jesus is coming to the Ancient of Days ,(obviously Yahweh), So often when it refers to Jesus coming it is referring to this. Also it talks, as it does in Exodus, about the clouds of Heaven so we can see that when it talks about Jesus ascending into a cloud it is talking about Jesus coming into the presence of God and not about ascending into a physical cloud.A major part of Jesus’ message was about the establishment of the Kingdom Obviously in this passage from Daniel it shows that the Son of Man has been given dominion over all kingdoms and that that kingdom is eternal. We can see clearly that the Kingdom is not just for some time in the future but it is for the world then and now as well.Jesus preached a Kingdom message which was full of political overtones but at the same time was both personal and corporative. The Kingdom of God’ (or the Kingdom of Heaven as Matthew uses the term), is made up of those who have truly taken Jesus’ message of love of neighbour, and even enemy, into their hearts. This is the connection between Jesus’ kingdom message and His political message.The Romans were brutal occupiers but Jesus was telling them that they should love them, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile etc. Essentially he is saying that the enemy is evil itself and that the Romans embodied that evil. He says then that the way to defeat evil, and by extension their Roman occupiers was through his message of love. It was about being the vehicles of God’s love for us in the world to change hearts including those of the Romans. It is easy to see why this message wasn’t well received by the majority who expected the Messiah to lead them militarily against the Romans. The Messiah was expected to defeat the Romans and rebuild the Temple. (It is easy to see why Judas, on the assumption that he was a revolutionary, was prepared to betray Him.)Jesus however said that the Romans were to be defeated by seeing their hearts changed and that the Temple would be rebuilt in the hearts of those who followed His message.
Paul gets this when he writes in Ephesians 6

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10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.

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So when Jesus talks about the sun being darkened, the stars falling etc He is talking about what will happen when the Revolution takes place. He can see that it is imminent enough to happen in that generation. (Which of course it did in 70 AD.) The Jewish nation was crushed and the Temple destroyed. This explains why He would say that they run to the hills as that would be the only place to hide from Roman soldiers. Once again, it is about Jesus coming to the Father, (The Ancient of Days), as in Daniel 7. This is kinda obscure so it could simply be a message that one should always be hearing and acting on Jesus’ message of love as you never know when this life will come to an end. If it was about the so-called rapture why would he suggest leaving the city and going to the hills, or that they would have strength to escape what was going on. It is obviously about fleeing the Romans when the revolution takes place. Right you are!!

The trouble is that isn't what scripture intends. It is like reading a book that says it was raining cats and dogs and understanding that our pets had been swept up by a tornado and were falling out of the sky.You are reading ancient texts with a 21st century mind set without considering the target audience and the idioms and the culture of that target audience. You pull information out of the texts that was never intended based upon your pre-conceived doctrine, and then you either rationalize or ignore the Scriptures which don't agree with your basic assumptions.The end result is that you have wound up with a doctrine which is very different from the message of Jesus, who embodied the Word of God.

You quoted this:

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1Thess 4:17 writes:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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..and then said this. When you read that, with a 21st century understanding and a pre-conceived doctrine, (not to mention a single verse taken out of context), you would see it that way.
This letter is being written to the Thessalonians as a letter of encouragement. He tells them in one section that they are sons of light and sons of day and that they are not of light or darkness. The verse you quote is a part of the section that is meant to qualm the fears about loved ones who have died ahead of Christ’s return. The language that he uses, especially in verse 17 is typical of much early Jewish expression using colourful language and hyperbole to make the point. The idea that he is talking about physical clouds is simply an add on by people centuries later in totally different cultures.
Once again as I have pointed out before the language of clouds goes back to the Exodus story including God leading them in a pillar of cloud, as well as other examples of God such as this verse from Exodus 19:

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9 The LORD said to Moses, I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.

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The cloud is not meant to be a physical cloud but simply about the presence of God, as is made clearer in the last part of the quoted verse from Thessalonians. As far as meeting the Lord in the air is concerned this goes back to both the Hebrew Sheol or the Greek Hades. Both referred to a kind of underworld for the dead. If those separated from God were in an underworld then the language that is used for those that go to the Lord would obviously be in the other direction as we see here...and about your sense of immanence
Just a couple of thoughts on that. You live in a situation with food, shelter and freedom. Do you think that others over the centuries who have been tortured for their faith, others who have been in POW camps, living through the great plague etc. didn’t think that this would be a good time to wrap things up? It seems to me that as Christians we should pray that this world goes on for millions of years. The longer this world goes on the more people there will be that get to have life and have the opportunity to know and serve the Lord. Why would we hope and pray for the end of this world to come and see them denied that opportunity. It seems to me that to pray for God to close this down sooner rather than later is a pretty self centred POV.
Also, in understanding the scriptures we can look at the whole idea in another light. Just maybe Jesus comes to us, as and when, we as individuals die. That may well be the second coming and would be consistent with the scriptures and more consistent with the belief that in the next life we will be in a world that is eternal, and as a result a world that experiences change,(time) differently than we currently experience.Sometimes in my church we use a modern creed that has what I consider a great line. "So complex so simple, so clear so mysterious, our God ever three yet eternally one."

I can just as easily say that I don't figure it was read that way. But that is exactly what your are doing Faith. You are using a 21st century understanding of language and its use, to understand what was written to audiences 2 to 3 thousnd years ago.

That they have gone into the presence of God, or into God's dimension. Jesus after resurrection would appear and disappear moving between God's dimension and our own.