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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 602 of 1748 (837860)
08-10-2018 7:14 AM


As far as I could tell most of this discussion is about outward indications and evidences about Christ's second coming. If I entered the discussion I would put much more emphasis on spiritual catalysts leading to and causing Christ's second coming.
In Revelation 19, for example, its says that the bride has made herself ready. This is the wooing and compelling impetus for a longing Christ to come again for at least a representative remnant who prepare themselves to be in total union of love with Him.
Am I right that that aspect has been less developed here ?

Replies to this message:
 Message 603 by Phat, posted 08-10-2018 7:29 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 604 by Faith, posted 08-10-2018 8:07 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 627 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-11-2018 2:12 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 605 of 1748 (837865)
08-10-2018 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 603 by Phat
08-10-2018 7:29 AM


Re: The Bride Ain't Ready
The concept would be entertained, but any potential members who self-identify with the Bride would be challenged to provide evidence that we were indeed ready for such a union and whether we were being a proper Bride through our behaviors and actions here in the present time.
I agree that self presumption should not be quickly claimed. Nevertheless, these aspects of His people's inward readiness and preparation are usually neglected in favor of attention to outward things of prophecy.
Let me give an example. The prophet Daniel calculated the time of the return from Babylonian captivity to the Promised Land by studying Jeremiah. But he gave himself to prayer and petitioning for that event. He did not simply consider the calender date. At the risk of his life he dedicated himself to consecration to God praying, petitioning, requesting from God that He be faithful to His promise.
This insistence on his inward harmony with God's prophecy caused his persecution and a trip to the lion's den. Think about it.
Why didn't [edited] Daniel simply stop praying and WAIT with attentive eyes to outward things like counting calender years and days? This should be a model to Christians. Inwardly Daniel aligned himself with God's promises.
I am sure that his PRAYERS and inward harmony with God's will prepared the way and even the impetus for God to come through and fulfill His promises.
Even though Daniel himself did not go back to the land, his consecration and prayers and living unto God laid the tracks for others to go back. It should be the same with the second coming of Christ.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 606 of 1748 (837866)
08-10-2018 8:22 AM


While it is easy to say 'The Bride Ain't Ready" this should not be an excuse for the Bride not to MAKE herself ready as it says.
Do you recall God telling the people "You say NOW is not the time to rebuild the house of the Lord." ?
Man often says "Now is not the time". God wants some to say "We seize the time now."
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 608 of 1748 (837868)
08-10-2018 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 604 by Faith
08-10-2018 8:07 AM


If there is no pre-tribulation rapture of at least some of those watching and ready for His sudden presence, there will be no great tribulation. This is important to see.
The pre-tribulation rapture of some saints is the catalyst that causes the last three and one half year great tribulation to occur.
The problems in Scripture arrive when one ASSUMES that a pre-tribulation rapture must involve every single member of the church. If you read carefully it is conditional upon watching and readiness. Therefore it must be that some heed the warning and some do not.
Selective rapture of some of the church on the earth has to be a piece of the puzzle to realize. All may be taken. All do not have to be taken at one time.
This touches on just what I introduced into the discussion perhaps - INWARD readiness being a cause of the events of prophecy.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by Faith, posted 08-10-2018 8:07 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 609 by Faith, posted 08-10-2018 8:36 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 610 of 1748 (837871)
08-10-2018 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 609 by Faith
08-10-2018 8:36 AM


There is spiritual warfare between the saints of Christ and His enemy Satan.
Our fight is not against flesh and blood but against spiritual forces.
The readiness of some of the saints in the last days is a strategic defeat to the enemy Satan. Their sudden snatching away to the third heavens is simultaneously an expulsion and further limiting of Satan's sphere of influence and activity.
The saints raptured causes ground to be lost by Satan in the heavenly spheres where he accuses God's people day and night before God's throne. Some go UP and Satan is driven DOWN.
He loses ground as a result of the inward maturity and readiness of some overcoming saints. Their rapture as a reward is simultaneously Satan's expulsion from realms he previously roamed in. And it forces the sphere of his opposition to Christ to become more narrow.This encreases his anger. And this encreased anger is an element that causes the great triublation.
Please, read carefully and prayerfully the 12th chapter of Revelation. And ask WHY does the Devil come down to earth with great wrath. And why does he now realize that he has only a little time.
This thread is very active. So I will not always be able to write throughout the whole day. I may have to suspend and return.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by Faith, posted 08-10-2018 8:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 611 by Faith, posted 08-10-2018 9:01 AM jaywill has replied
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 613 of 1748 (837906)
08-10-2018 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 610 by jaywill
08-10-2018 8:51 AM


I will give attention to this this evening.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 616 of 1748 (837924)
08-11-2018 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 611 by Faith
08-10-2018 9:01 AM


quote:
I would like to know your understanding of what readiness means.
Revelation 19 says the righteousnesses of the saints make her ready. That is not a typo. RighteounessES means the righteous deeds from righteous living. This living out the indwelling Christ in terms of righteous deeds - righteousnessES prepare the wife for the wedding.
Let us rejoice and exalt, and let us give glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.
And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints. (Rev. 19:7,8)
The righteous deeds issuing out of walking with Christ becomes her very wedding garment of fine linen, bright and clean . The plural RIGHTEOUSNESS-ES are her wedding garments as well as her fighting garment in the spiritual warfare. For her fighting armor is the same as her wedding garment.
And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean." (Rev. 19:14)
A remnant of saints will constitute the wife for the wedding.
And the same remnant of saints will constitute the fighting army to accompany Christ to Armageddon. In both cases the righteous living, the righteous deeds stemming from walking in union with the living and indwelling Christ qualifies them for both the wedding and the battle.
This is a remnant of overcoming saints we can call "overcomers". They simply rise to the level of normality in enjoying grace. They are not super spiritual. They are normal and overcoming via the grace of Christ which they do not nullify.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 611 by Faith, posted 08-10-2018 9:01 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 619 by Faith, posted 08-11-2018 1:36 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 620 of 1748 (837933)
08-11-2018 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 617 by LamarkNewAge
08-11-2018 12:48 AM


Re: I always think of the "Rapture" as some mass suicide or mass killing.
Nothing I have written remotely resembles that.
You should tend to the actual words written in Scripture very carefully.
And you have the Old Testament example of the patriarch Enoch. He walked with God and was not found at all because God took him. Genesis 5:22-24. All the others lived so long and then it records that they died. Enoch is an exception.
In reading about a Bible subject one must firstly master the facts as they are written. Then we can go on to interpretations - as to which is better. You have to master the facts of the details as they are expressed.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-11-2018 12:48 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 621 of 1748 (837934)
08-11-2018 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 619 by Faith
08-11-2018 1:36 AM


Re: Readiness
quote:
Good straightforward point. What is the oil in the lamps of the five virgins who are ready to "go out to meet Him?" The Holy Spirit is what I've usually heard.
The difference between the wise virgins and the foolish virgins is that the wise had extra oil. They had not only oil in their lamps but also stored in their vessels along with their lamps. This is extra oil.
The lamp signifies the spirit of man. All regenerated people possess the Holy Spirit imparted into their human spirit. If we are wise we will go on to allow the Holy Spirit to spread out into our soul. The soul is distinct from the human spirit. And the soul is the vessel. Transformation calls for the Holy Spirit moving out from the center of our being to our surrounding soul in sanctification.
This is the WISE preparation for Christ's return - to allow the extra portion of the Holy Spirit to so saturate our soul as the seat of our personality. This requires a price paid. But the initial filling of the human spirit with the Holy Spirit is a gift.
Five foolish and five wise does not mean half are foolish and half are wise. Rather five is a number signifying responsibility. So it is each Christian's own responsibility as to whether they will be wise or foolish.
The foolish virgins do not perish eternally. But they are late for the celebration.
They end up paying the same price for the extra oil in the vessel anyway. But they do so LATE.
The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord. (Proverbs 20:27)
The soul of man is the earthen vessel which requires renewing and saturation with the Holy Spirit in sanctification and transformation ONCE the initial receiving of the Holy Spirit in regeneration is obtained. (Second Corinthians 4:7)
It is foolish to only receive the new birth and neglect sanctification.
It is wise to go on to tend to sanctification after one has been born again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by Faith, posted 08-11-2018 1:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 622 by Faith, posted 08-11-2018 7:56 AM jaywill has replied
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 Message 641 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-12-2018 8:14 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 636 of 1748 (838011)
08-12-2018 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 622 by Faith
08-11-2018 7:56 AM


Re: Readiness
quote:
That's a good framework for studying it I think, but the foolish virgins had the door shut in their face so there isn't much to support the idea that they would later join the wise virgins.
The point is observed. However, it also does not explicitly say that they perished forever.
Now if the oil represents the Holy Spirit and the foolish virgins had the oil then to say they were lost forever would mean they did so WITH the Holy Spirit. Are you ready to believe that?
The oil in the lamp would mean regeneration.
If they perished after being regenerated, that means eternal life is on loan and not a gift.
If the extra oil in the vessel truly signifies sanctification of the Holy Spirit of the soul, then for them to be lost forever would be for them to perish after regeneration and sanctification. That can't be right (Eph. 2:8) .
The Holy Spirit is given to the disciple FOREVER and not temporarily -
"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you." (John 14:16,17)
The Holy Spirit will be Christ dwelling in them, and that FOREVER .
Since the Third Person of the Triune God is given to indwell the believers for eternity, the foolish virgins, though late for the wedding celebration, must join the others at some remedial latter time.
This is consistent with too much other teaching of the New Testament.
What I would recommend is that in that passage we just realize that the FOCUS is on the reward of sanctification rather than the gift of eternal life. Why can't Jesus Christ FOCUS on THAT matter at times ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 622 by Faith, posted 08-11-2018 7:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 637 by Faith, posted 08-12-2018 1:51 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 638 of 1748 (838036)
08-12-2018 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 637 by Faith
08-12-2018 1:51 PM


Re: Readiness
quote:
I don't want to belabor this, I need to study it more, but the actual phrase is "had no oil in their lamps"
Which translation is this? I refer to the Recovery Version which reads -
"And five of them were foolish and five were prudent. (Matt. 5:2)
For the foolish, when they took thier lamps, did not take oil with them; (v.3)
But the prudent took oil in their vessels with their lamps. (v.4)
All of the TEN have lamps burning which should mean ALL TEN have oil to burn in their lamps.
What distinguishes prudent virgins from the foolish ones is that former took OIL "in their vessels WITH their lamps" .
ALL TEN are virgins unto the Bridegroom should tell us they are on equal status as lovers to Christ WHOM they eagerly EXPECT to come. All Christians who are regenerated have the Holy Spirit in their enlivened human spirit.
The foolish virgins did not bring with them the oil in their vessels aside from the burning oil in their lamps. This is a reserve, an extra portion in the OTHER container - the vessel aside from the burning lamp.
"For the foolish, when they took their lamps, did not take oil with their lamps." (v.4)
It is the EXTRA oil which makes the difference between prudence and foolishness.
"But the prudent took oil in their vessels WITH their lamps." (v.5)
We have TEN virgins all with lamps burning with OIL.
We have FIVE foolish virgins who took no EXTRA oil in vessels.
We have FIVE prudent virgins who took EXTRA oil in vessels WITH their lamps.
While the Bridegroom tarried and delayed his coming they ALL became drowsy and slept.
"And while the bridegroom delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. (v.5)
I agree with the interpretation that this probably means as Christ delayed His soon return many Christians expire and sleep the sleep of physically dying in the church age.
At some future time the word goes out to rise and go forth to MEET the Bridegroom. All lamps were burning with oil. The foolish are caught in an awkward situation because they have no EXTRA oil in their vessels. The prudent virgins in a similar situation are better PREPARED. It is the resurrection and going to MEET the Lord which EXPOSES the foolishness and the prudence of those Christians.
While there is always the aspect of brotherly love, fellowship and communion among brother and sister Christians, there IS an aspect of personal responsibility which no one ELSE can perform for EACH believer. She or he must have wisdom to prepared herself or himself.
"But at midnight there was a cry, Behold, the bridegroom! Go forth to meet him! Then all those virgins AROSE ... and trimmed their own lamps.
And the foolish said to the prudent, Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out." (v.8)
Though throughout the church age Christians can pray for one another and supply grace to one another, there remains some aspect of PERSONAL responsibility to one's OWN testimony - "trimmed their OWN lamps"
Notice that the PRICE to obtain the extra oil should have been paid WHILE they were awake. Now that they are all arising from sleep, the opportunity to pay the price to obtain the extra oil manifests unwise TARDINESS, Procrastination of paying the price when it SHOULD have been paid now means misfortune.
Some saints will resurrect and realize that it was FOOLISH for them NOT to have paid a price for the saturation of the Holy Spirit in their SOUL ( the vessel ) though they did possess the Holy Spirit in their innermost spirit from regeneration.
Some of us Christians will discover that the REGENERATION while qualifying us for the gift of eternal life did not always qualify us to meet Christ the Bridegroom for the celebration of His marriage.
Perhaps I wonder today "Why are you so much loving the Lord Jesus? Why are you spending this time to walk by the Spirit when you could be spending time on other things. You appear foolish to me because you occupy yourself in matters that are not necessary."
This foolish attitude will one day be exposed in many Christians. They thought it was a waste of time to be sanctified, diving into the Word of God, walking in Spirit, obeying the teaching of the anointing to LIVE Christ as if He should come at ANY MOMENT.
But the actual imprudence of their attitude will be seen. Now the price to obtain the Holy Spirit is STILL paid. But it is paid WHILE the festivities of His return are taking place. From those festivities they are excluded. He does not even say He knows them.
For length's sake let me conclude this post.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 639 of 1748 (838037)
08-12-2018 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 637 by Faith
08-12-2018 1:51 PM


Re: Readiness
quote:
which could imply that they had not received the Holy Spirit.
ALL of the lamps GOING OUT must mean that ALL were burning and ALL had oil.
I would take it then that the going OUT of the lamp's lighting means that it is manifest that REGENERATION was not enough needed for the festive celebration of the specific joys of Christ's return commencing the millennial kingdom.
Remember that this parable pertains to the righteousness of the KINGDOM - the government of God. Love from the saints towards the Bridegroom is also a matter of KINGDOM government for the next age -
Notice the beginning of the teaching -
"At that time the kingdom of the heavens will be likened to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went forth to meet the bridegroom." (v.1)
The words "At that time" mean the close of the church age and the commencement of the age of the millennial kingdom. The time of righteous reward to the overcoming saints from the church age of grace is now at hand. At that time the prudent verses the foolish during the church age will become clearly manifest.
I'll continue some additional thoughts latter.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 640 of 1748 (838039)
08-12-2018 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 637 by Faith
08-12-2018 1:51 PM


Re: Readiness
quote:
We could talk about what we must do to be constantly filled with the Spirit.
But I'm also interested in what you think about the Great Tribulation which comes after the Rapture. I understand it to be the wrath of God on an ungodly world, from which prepared believers have been promised escape.
You know that so much of the New Testament contains exhortations to walk by the Holy Spirit. This means to enjoy taking Jesus Christ as the source of our living within. We as Christians must learn to walk step by step in the enjoyment of Jesus Christ.
Every act of obeying the Holy Spirit must result in some amount of Him moving from the innermost kernel of our being out into our personality. Walk by the Spirit, Paul says, and we shall by means fuflill the lust of the flesh.
We have to take this step in Jesus and take that step in Jesus. We must learn to take each step in the enjoyment of Jesus as all we need. This certainly is a life long learning matter.
Walk by the Spirit.
We learn to say "No" to the old way of living and "Yes" to the Spirit of Christ in our regenerated spirit.
He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit - First Cor. 6:17.
In our regenerated spirit dwells the Holy Spirit - the Lord Jesus in His form as the Holy Spirit. Heeding Him causes Him to have more and more influence over our soul - that is our personality.
When I was very young as a Christian I was taught how to begin each day with God. That means to set aside a definite time to be in the enjoyment of Him in the word and prayer. This is a way to begin each day. Each day is a NEW day. And each day we should learn to set aside an amount of time FOR the enjoyment of Jesus Christ.
We may start small and grow to a longer time. But that we HAVE such a daily time is excellent. It makes a difference in walking by the Lord Jesus. And learning to walk in Christ is wise for preparation to meet Him.
This is a brief word on the practical matter of readiness that you asked about.
Please notice that Christ said TWO will be in a field working, or TWO will be at a mill grinding or TWO will be in a bed sleeping. One is taken and one is left. Now this must have to do with very inward things of being BEFORE Christ in the heart. And that in doing the mundane matters of our daily responsibilities.
This matter of TWO being at their daily life and one raptured and the other left (temporarily I would say) is the outcome of all that Romans 8 teaches about setting the mind on the spirit where the Spirit of Christ is.
The mind set on the spirit is life and peace. In our daily mundane walk we should learn to love the Lord Jesus and set out mind on the Holy Spirit. This will become unconscious. We can tell not by how we ACT but by how we REACT.
At any rate it matters to walk by the Spirit. And those who dismiss this as foolish or time wasting, not being necessary, may just realize it was foolish to neglect such a daily walk with Jesus Christ.
Do you understand what I am saying here?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 637 by Faith, posted 08-12-2018 1:51 PM Faith has replied

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 642 of 1748 (838054)
08-13-2018 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 641 by LamarkNewAge
08-12-2018 8:14 PM


Re: Matthew 25 and 22 seem somewhat materialistic and worldly. But what do they demand?
I did not appreciate you describing my comments as "blathering." If you want to discuss things with me understand that I expect a little mutual respect. You don't have to agree of course.
I also have no heart to refer to non-canonical books like the Gospel of Thomas to derive ANY major insight into the revelation of the canonical books.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 641 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-12-2018 8:14 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 643 of 1748 (838055)
08-13-2018 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 637 by Faith
08-12-2018 1:51 PM


Re: Readiness
Faith, I hope to remark something on the Revelation 7 passage sometime today.

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