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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1596 of 1748 (848183)
02-01-2019 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1592 by Phat
02-01-2019 9:57 AM


Re: Incredulous Drivel
But the belief in a higher power is no less credulous at this point than our science someday patting itself on the back because we found bacteria on the nearest asteroid!
If you don't mind differences of a few 1010000... orders magnitude then, yeah, I guess you're in the ball park.
The things we humans believe! Like that we humans are nothing special in this vast universe and likely as not will die off some year...leaving perhaps no more of a contribution to the intergalactic star stuff than wisps of DNA...and plastic! If you can live with such a hedonistic outlook that basically tells you to go fishing, loving, and creating now for tomorrow we die...
You DO understand! Hallelujah!
Welcome to the dark side, Phat-man!

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1592 by Phat, posted 02-01-2019 9:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1601 of 1748 (848225)
02-01-2019 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1598 by Faith
02-01-2019 4:45 PM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
And you actually believe this ... stuff.
You are entitled, of course, but it's full of ... stuff.
Stuff of violence and pain and ... you guys really like spilling blood ... we no longer need these memes in our culture. Never did actually.
This kind of evil mysticism needs to be ... ridiculed (sorry, M'Love) ... then ignored.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1598 by Faith, posted 02-01-2019 4:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1602 by Faith, posted 02-01-2019 6:29 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1604 of 1748 (848232)
02-01-2019 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1600 by Faith
02-01-2019 6:07 PM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
... all three nevertheless being God as to attributes.
What attributes? Do they all shave in the same direction, except the ghost, of course, since he doesn't shave ... does he? Come to think of it he is probably the only one who does.
Is there some kind of ESP among the three of them? Do they "hear" each others' thoughts?
What attributes, M'Lady.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1600 by Faith, posted 02-01-2019 6:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1605 by Faith, posted 02-01-2019 7:01 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1607 of 1748 (848244)
02-01-2019 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1605 by Faith
02-01-2019 7:01 PM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
They are all three omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. They all inhabit all space everywhere, they all know everything past present and future, they all have power over all things. And they are all INVISIBLE.
...
But as to His attributes as God He is invisible as well as omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. All the perfections of love, wisdom, mercy, goodness, justice etc etc etc belong to God.
Right. And I'm the Prince of Wales.
Did Jesus shave? I don't know. Maybe he trimmed his beard.
Beard is very good. A trimmed beard is even better. Very handsome. I know. I have a devil of a time with all these people trying to make me their god.
OK maybe not that many.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1605 by Faith, posted 02-01-2019 7:01 PM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1608 of 1748 (848246)
02-01-2019 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1602 by Faith
02-01-2019 6:29 PM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
it is endemic to the human race that people kill each other all the time for all kinds of reasons.
Yes it is with a lot more people taking advantage of that proclivity to get rich and control the agenda especially on the right.
But we don't have to except this as status quo. We can help change this. Economically we must assure everyone, at least as many as we can when we can, clear and reasonable access to water, food, shelter and health care. Then we can work on productivity, self-reliance and the atheist agenda.
But we have to start. We haven't even started. We are doing near nothing to help each other. Only ourselves.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1602 by Faith, posted 02-01-2019 6:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1609 by Faith, posted 02-02-2019 12:32 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1611 of 1748 (848252)
02-02-2019 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1609 by Faith
02-02-2019 12:32 AM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
Oh I don’t have a plan, as it were, just I can’t stop thinking that we may be able to impact the situation by taking away one the biggest excuses violent people use to hide their true nature and falsely motivate their followers.
Get rid of religion.
Unfortunately lions, tigers and bears are in short supply and can’t eat all the Christians we have. Besides, that much fat, cholesterol and gluten is probably not good for the lion’s health.
So I’m thinking we need to jawbone the coming generations through forums like this into abandoning the evil religions of the past in favor of us all sitting around the campfire holding hands singing kumbaya at each other.
Open to revision, of course, especially that singing part.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1609 by Faith, posted 02-02-2019 12:32 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1612 by Faith, posted 02-02-2019 9:51 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1615 of 1748 (848274)
02-02-2019 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1612 by Faith
02-02-2019 9:51 AM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
History.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1612 by Faith, posted 02-02-2019 9:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1617 by Faith, posted 02-02-2019 10:48 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 1620 of 1748 (848287)
02-02-2019 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1617 by Faith
02-02-2019 10:48 AM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
Absolutly not history. History shows the exact opposite.
Of course it does.
The most violent, mean, openly malicious, intolerant and evil catechism ever devised by the black heart of man was just a simple misunderstanding among your clarics and their kings.
Turns out you were a poster child for your newly emerged equally black-hearted sister, Islam.
Your religion set such an excellent example of how not to do life.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1617 by Faith, posted 02-02-2019 10:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1621 by Faith, posted 02-02-2019 6:32 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1625 of 1748 (848333)
02-03-2019 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1622 by candle2
02-03-2019 11:11 AM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
In the beginning was the Word...
Then it was really late. We'd already been here for 13.7+- billion years before any of those showed up. Trying to starting another creation right where/when one is already going is rather fumble-fingered and feeble-minded I would think. Just how old is this god?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1622 by candle2, posted 02-03-2019 11:11 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1626 by Phat, posted 02-03-2019 4:15 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 1645 by candle2, posted 02-05-2019 9:19 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 1674 by Phat, posted 03-10-2019 11:35 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1631 of 1748 (848348)
02-03-2019 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1626 by Phat
02-03-2019 4:15 PM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
Words were words in the beginning...even before humans could so much as utter syllables. Words exist to express ideas long before the "messenger" grows enough to express them.
Sorry. No.
"Word" or words don't exist outside the human who conjures them up until she speaks them.
(One of my sexist pig moments because I'm partial to the idea that it was the pre-proto-human female who first associated a made-up vocal sound with an abstract idea.)
Anyway, no human, no word. Not even the idea of word.
I don't believe that the authors themselves were inspirational beyond the norm for humanity.
A most likely case. Rather strongly so since even out there in the 3rd standard deviation under the curve and beyond we're still pretty much "inspirational"-less.
There are different words and different philosophies expressed through words.
Yeah. What we do with them can be amazing. Bob Dylan, Mark Twain, and, oh how Harper Lee and Charles Dickens could put visions together.
The text seems to suggest that The Word supersedes random words and dueling philosophies.
Well, in my view the text can too easily suggest whatever the holder wants to see, but, in this case, I think it's clear the author had a special image, a special emotional extra meaning attached to "Word".
And, of course, what could possibly have existed before anything else at all? Sure, a human utterance. We were the greatest intellect around for 1000s of miles as evidenced most profoundly by our communications abilities. So, if this god is supposed to be so much even greater then we, well, the very height of intellect was already known to be "words".
So, ok, the very first thing was the word.
A problem I have with this is what word was it? I rather like "Hagen-Dazs Chocolate Ice Cream" as the very first word but that's more of a phrase so it probably doesn't count.
Our challenge is to attempt to find cohesion between 66 books and many authors to see if they all have mere words or The Word.
We could give them each an award for spinning one hell of a yarn, except we can't seem to determine who, actually, they were. Other than that, I think the next best thing to do would be to ignore them.
Our other challenge is to determine the characteristics of The Word vs simply words and philosophies.
Ok, cue the unicorns!
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1626 by Phat, posted 02-03-2019 4:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1636 by Phat, posted 02-04-2019 7:52 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1632 of 1748 (848349)
02-03-2019 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1627 by Phat
02-03-2019 4:18 PM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
We have become the word of knowledge ourselves?
Well, we did eat from that tree, right? The one with the talking snake wrapped around it?
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1627 by Phat, posted 02-03-2019 4:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1634 of 1748 (848354)
02-03-2019 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1633 by candle2
02-03-2019 6:48 PM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
Doesn't the bible say no one can know the mind and plan of god?
But you seem to have him pegged pretty well. Like maybe you were in on the planning.
Normally such knowledge is reserved for charlatans. You must be a charlatan. Are you a charlatan?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1633 by candle2, posted 02-03-2019 6:48 PM candle2 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1637 of 1748 (848394)
02-04-2019 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1636 by Phat
02-04-2019 7:52 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Dr. Max Tegmark, MIT physicist, cosmologist, mathematician, is so enthralled with the mathematical relationships he views Math as the reality of this universe.
In the beginning there was the Math. And the Math was in the universe. And the Math was the universe.
Same applies to the "Word" as god.
I can't go there on either account.
We use math to try to model the relationships we see between objects. Equations are neither the relationships nor the the objects themselves but symbolic representations of each. To me, math is the light that illuminates the relationships and, as far as we know at this point, the flashlight empowering that illumination is only within the human mind.
As you already saw my coming: did the relationships exist before we modeled them? For billions of years, yes, but the model did not make the relationship, only uncovered its existence.
A bit different with "idea" or "word". Until there was a human mind capable of abstract symbol manipulation, and understanding the result, there cannot have been any "idea". There was no vessel, space, time, dimension or aether to contain the idea. Nowhere for it to exist except within the emerging abstract-enabled mind.
Further, the idea of an invisible pink unicorn does not create the reality of such a thing. Same for the gods.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1636 by Phat, posted 02-04-2019 7:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1639 by Phat, posted 02-04-2019 11:27 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1644 of 1748 (848412)
02-04-2019 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1639 by Phat
02-04-2019 11:27 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Play devils advocate and make a counter-argument to what you have just stated.
Ok, ready?
It got poofed ... it be majik!
(Sorry.)
What would it sound like?
It would sound very much like the woo one reads about crystal/pyramid power, astrology, cosmic quantum consciousness and religion. Whack-o krazy with a capital K.
Why cannot there be an idea before a human mind defines it?
Why must ideas be contained only in human minds?
Because as far as we know humans are the only entity in existence that have exhibited such abilities. Some dolphins, apes may be there. Evidence indicates some abstract abilities but how far advanced is questioned. If they're doing calculus they haven't let us watch.
You're the woo-meister. You tell me. If an idea existed prior to human cognition, where was it? Of what was it made? How did it get from where ever into the electro-chemical synapses of the brain tissue?
If this is another "god done it", well, you know where that gets us.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1639 by Phat, posted 02-04-2019 11:27 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1649 by Phat, posted 02-07-2019 6:02 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1648 of 1748 (848464)
02-05-2019 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1645 by candle2
02-05-2019 9:19 AM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
I don't know how long the earth and universe has been in existence and neither do you.
Well, that depends. We can't get exact, I mean we're talking lots and lots of time here, right? But we've got it down to a few hundred million years or so at this point.
If you claim to know then I want proof,
Proof. Ah, ok, we don't do proof. We do evidence.
Unfortunately, a lot of it is in the math and I'm thinking that might be problematic for you. Which is ok. I still have problems with some of that, too.
life began by rain water leaching life from the rocks?
I know what you meant. Abiogenesis: Rainwater leaching life from the rocks.
I like the visual. I'll use that. Thank you.
There has been no evidence of one kind of animal evolving into another kind of animal.
That sorta depends on your world view. Evidence depends on facts and a lot of religious people have a difficult time with facts. They prefer fantasy.
The closest we come to tissue is "variation in a species."
Because you haven't tried "variation in a species times 4 billion years".
That changes everything.
There is no evidence of an organism going beyond the variation programmed into it
Of course not. You got the modules of code you got and that's it. Fortunately, Mother Nature®, is still on duty and has slightly different programs for everyone. Then she mixes a bunch of them together and comes up with a whole new batch, each different.
There is a lot of mixing together. Lots of that. She likes to watch.
I don't believe that there are actual full-fledged evolutionists.
You probably don't believe in the Illuminati either, do you, heretic!
Everything that is OBSERVED supports creation.
Ahh, yes. Faith v2.0.
No. I don't care what music you like!

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1645 by candle2, posted 02-05-2019 9:19 AM candle2 has not replied

  
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