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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 1591 of 1748 (848165)
02-01-2019 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1590 by LamarkNewAge
02-01-2019 8:22 AM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
LNA writes:

Nice quote from scripture.
(Did you miss the part about me ONLY wanting a raw scriptural quotation, absent any blather?)

Sometimes life is good enough to give you not just what you ask for but also a little bit more. Did you miss the link I gave you showing the biblical passages that Christians believe demonstrates the Trinity?

Again, where does it say God sacrificed himself?

Apparently Christians believe that Jesus was god made man, so...

I don't care what (Gospel) John 1 says.

Me niether.

I know that some scriptures say Jesus was God.

Then presumably you get the point that God made himself the sacrafice.

I just want to see this large New Testament sacrifice theme being put into the context of God HIMSELF being the sacrifice.

(Again, I'm not saying that no New Testament books had the idea present, I just wonder why it might never actually spell out that GOD HIMSELF WAS THE SACRIFICE)

Let me spell it out for you then. If you believe that Jesus was god - tricky to say otherwise and still be a Christian - then he was the sacrafice. And unless he was the sacrafice original sin is not atoned for and we're all going to hell. Simple.

(I suppose my implication is that "Jesus is/was God" was such a LATE-developing idea, that the Biblical scriptures, with a reflection of various (earlier?) Christologies, did not quite have the chance to certainly describe the oft-repeated sacrificial lamb as God himself)

Yeh, well, whatever, it makes no difference to me which bit of the myth was fabricated when - it's still myth, nose to tail. But it SHOULD matter to Phat because he believes something that makes no sense to anyone - a god kills himself to pay for the sins that he didn't commit. What utter drivel.

Here's those scriptures again.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/...-verses-about-the-trinity


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1590 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-01-2019 8:22 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1592 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-01-2019 9:57 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 1622 by candle2, posted 02-03-2019 11:11 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 1633 by candle2, posted 02-03-2019 6:48 PM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12810
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1592 of 1748 (848172)
02-01-2019 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1591 by Tangle
02-01-2019 8:42 AM


Incredulous Drivel
tangle writes:

...But it SHOULD matter to Phat because he believes something that makes no sense to anyone - a god kills himself to pay for the sins that he didn't commit. What utter drivel.

The things we humans believe! Like that we humans are nothing special in this vast universe and likely as not will die off some year...leaving perhaps no more of a contribution to the intergalactic star stuff than wisps of DNA...and plastic! If you can live with such a hedonistic outlook that basically tells you to go fishing, loving, and creating now for tomorrow we die...knock yourselves out! I dont know what you find so silly about a Creator of all who has the capability of communing with us. No sillier than us communicating with some slime alien at some point in the future...what fun that will be!

In summation, granted some of the Christian mythos is incredulous. Granted much makes no sense.

But the belief in a higher power is no less credulous at this point than our science someday patting itself on the back because we found bacteria on the nearest asteroid!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1591 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2019 8:42 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1594 by ringo, posted 02-01-2019 10:47 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 1595 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2019 10:56 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1596 by AZPaul3, posted 02-01-2019 1:47 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17297
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 1593 of 1748 (848173)
02-01-2019 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1590 by LamarkNewAge
02-01-2019 8:22 AM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
LamarkNewAge writes:

(Did you miss the part about me ONLY wanting a raw scriptural quotation, absent any blather?)


Like it or not, this is a blather site, not a raw quotation site. You're the one who is doing it wrong.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1590 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-01-2019 8:22 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17297
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1594 of 1748 (848174)
02-01-2019 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1592 by Thugpreacha
02-01-2019 9:57 AM


Re: Incredulous Drivel
Phat writes:

But the belief in a higher power is no less credulous at this point than our science someday patting itself on the back because we found bacteria on the nearest asteroid!


The word you're looking for is "credible", not "credulous". And the belief in a higher power is far, far, far less credible than the belief that we will someday find life elsewhere in the universe.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1592 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-01-2019 9:57 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1597 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-01-2019 4:11 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 1595 of 1748 (848175)
02-01-2019 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1592 by Thugpreacha
02-01-2019 9:57 AM


Re: Incredulous Drivel
Phat writes:

The things we humans believe! Like that we humans are nothing special in this vast universe and likely as not will die off some year...leaving perhaps no more of a contribution to the intergalactic star stuff than wisps of DNA...and plastic! If you can live with such a hedonistic outlook that basically tells you to go fishing, loving, and creating now for tomorrow we die...knock yourselves out! I dont know what you find so silly about a Creator of all who has the capability of communing with us. No sillier than us communicating with some slime alien at some point in the future...what fun that will be!

In summation, granted some of the Christian mythos is incredulous. Granted much makes no sense.

But the belief in a higher power is no less credulous at this point than our science someday patting itself on the back because we found bacteria on the nearest asteroid!

Whether any of that is true or not is irrelevant as it does not answer the question put to you. A reminder, why would you believe that a god killed himself in order to atone for a sin neither he or you committed?

Does it make any sense to you? It seems from your reply that it doesn't. Do you just shrug it off as a mystery?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1592 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-01-2019 9:57 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1598 by Faith, posted 02-01-2019 4:45 PM Tangle has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 1596 of 1748 (848183)
02-01-2019 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1592 by Thugpreacha
02-01-2019 9:57 AM


Re: Incredulous Drivel
But the belief in a higher power is no less credulous at this point than our science someday patting itself on the back because we found bacteria on the nearest asteroid!

If you don't mind differences of a few 1010000... orders magnitude then, yeah, I guess you're in the ball park.

The things we humans believe! Like that we humans are nothing special in this vast universe and likely as not will die off some year...leaving perhaps no more of a contribution to the intergalactic star stuff than wisps of DNA...and plastic! If you can live with such a hedonistic outlook that basically tells you to go fishing, loving, and creating now for tomorrow we die...

You DO understand! Hallelujah!

Welcome to the dark side, Phat-man!


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1592 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-01-2019 9:57 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12810
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1597 of 1748 (848195)
02-01-2019 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1594 by ringo
02-01-2019 10:47 AM


Re: Incredulous Drivel
Im talking about our prospects after death. (physical death here in this world)

You will likely argue that the only death we have evidence for is that.

Using evidence as your core belief (seeing is believing) you will stop speculating on any hypotheticals, citing loch ness and Loki as equally likely as a Creator of all seen and unseen who can and will commune with us at some point


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1594 by ringo, posted 02-01-2019 10:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1616 by ringo, posted 02-02-2019 10:47 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32933
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1598 of 1748 (848205)
02-01-2019 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1595 by Tangle
02-01-2019 10:56 AM


God did not "kill himself"
A reminder, why would you believe that a god killed himself in order to atone for a sin neither he or you committed?

First, what sin is it that nobody has committed? Original sin? But we don't need to make that much of original sin since having that propensity in us means we all sin all the time every day anyway and need atonement for our own personal sins.

You've made this statement a number of times and it's such a strange misrepresentation of the Christian doctrine I have to answer. God the Father allowed His Son to be put to death. He didn't kill Him and the Son didn't kill Himself. Four thousand years of animal sacrifice should have set the stage for it, as also did the interrupted sacrifice of Isaac by his father Abraham. These were all pictures of what the OT teaches over and over again: sin cannot be atoned for except by blood sacrifice, and animal sacrifice won't really do it, that was all just a picture of how costly the sacrifices must be. The true sacrifice must be human, and the victim must be perfect and unblemished -- all this pictured in the laws of sacrifice too. And the sacrifice of Jesus Himself is spelled out in the Letter to the Hebrews in particular as well.

He gave Himself for the role, but He did not kill Himself. And though He is God He is one of the three Persons who are all God, so that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God but all separate Persons with separate roles though the same mind.

I know it's all fiction to you no matter what, but if you're going to try to say something meaningful about what Christians think you should at least try to get it right.

So sacrifice of a HUMAN BEING was necessary for the remission of our sins, and the only one who could qualify for that role was a perfect sinless human being and the only one who could be perfect and sinless was the Son of God.

Thank you for your careful attention to these things."

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1595 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2019 10:56 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1599 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2019 5:49 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1601 by AZPaul3, posted 02-01-2019 6:17 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 1599 of 1748 (848220)
02-01-2019 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1598 by Faith
02-01-2019 4:45 PM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
Faith writes:

First, what sin is it that nobody has committed? Original sin?

Ah, you knew!

But we don't need to make that much of original sin

Except that it's the brick that the whole bloody Christian edifice is built on. You know, Adam's sin and everything. It's normally considered fairly fundamental.

since having that propensity in us means we all sin all the time every day anyway and need atonement for our own personal sins.

Tricky that. Jesus is reputed to have died before I sinned.

You've made this statement a number of times

Yeh, that's because it's not been answered.

God the Father allowed His Son to be put to death.

Plausible isn't it? Anyway, God the Father's son was apparently also God.

He didn't kill Him and the Son didn't kill Himself.

Of course he did, the Father sent his son to certain death and the son complied. But the two are the same thing anyway. As is the third apparently. 3 in 1 and all that. Basically he crucified himself.

Four thousand years of animal sacrifice should have set the stage for it, as also did the interrupted sacrifice of Isaac by his father Abraham. These were all pictures of what the OT teaches over and over again: sin cannot be atoned for except by blood sacrifice, and animal sacrifice won't really do it, that was all just a picture of how costly the sacrifices must be. The true sacrifice must be human, and the victim must be perfect and unblemished -- all this pictured in the laws of sacrifice too. And the sacrifice of Jesus Himself is spelled out in the Letter to the Hebrews in particular as well.

And all this makes perfect sense to you I suppose?

He gave Himself for the role, but He did not kill Himself. And though He is God He is one of the three Persons who are all God, so that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God but all separate Persons with separate roles though the same mind.

Still making sense to you?

I know it's all fiction to you no matter what, but if you're going to try to say something meaningful about what Christians think you should at least try to get it right.

So far my summary of god killing himself to atone for a sin neither of us committed matches your verbose description.

So sacrifice of a HUMAN BEING was necessary for the remission of our sins, and the only one who could qualify for that role was a perfect sinless human being and the only one who could be perfect and sinless was the Son of God.

And yet He was a god. And allowed himself to be killed for sins neither we nor he committed.

Thank you for your careful attention to these things."

You're welcome. Did you think all that changes anything? It still makes no sense to me.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1598 by Faith, posted 02-01-2019 4:45 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1600 by Faith, posted 02-01-2019 6:07 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32933
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1600 of 1748 (848223)
02-01-2019 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1599 by Tangle
02-01-2019 5:49 PM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
Yes original sin is foundational and jesus would have died only for that but the fact is that we all sin personally all the time BECAUSE we inherit original sin. So you can't get away with saying he died for a sin nobody committed. Even original sin we commit because we inherit its guilt and its consequences, but I want to make it easier for you so I emphasize that we all sin personally anyway.

I'll accept that God did the killing because I wouldn't be a good Calvinist if I didn't, and I should have said so before, so the problem here is getting across the Trinity. You have to recognize that the Godhead is one but there are Three Persons who all share in the attiributes of God so that the Son does in fact act independently of the Father and the Holy Spirit acts independently of Father and Son, all three nevertheless being God as to attributes.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1599 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2019 5:49 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1603 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2019 6:35 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1604 by AZPaul3, posted 02-01-2019 6:48 PM Faith has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 1601 of 1748 (848225)
02-01-2019 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1598 by Faith
02-01-2019 4:45 PM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
And you actually believe this ... stuff.

You are entitled, of course, but it's full of ... stuff.

Stuff of violence and pain and ... you guys really like spilling blood ... we no longer need these memes in our culture. Never did actually.

This kind of evil mysticism needs to be ... ridiculed (sorry, M'Love) ... then ignored.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1598 by Faith, posted 02-01-2019 4:45 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1602 by Faith, posted 02-01-2019 6:29 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32933
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1602 of 1748 (848230)
02-01-2019 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1601 by AZPaul3
02-01-2019 6:17 PM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
The weird thing is that you think we are inventing all this bloodshed though a brief glance at the history of the world -- not to mention the daily headlines, and what is going on everywhere else on the planet -- should show you that it is endemic to the human race that people kill each other all the time for all kinds of reasons. So here comes God giving us a way out of it and instead of thanking Him you accuse Him of inventing all that which is simply what fallen human nature does. ONE sacrifice to save us all and you impute all the bloodshed in the world to the one who would save us from it.

And you think somehow it's all ended in modern times? That is maybe the most dangerous thing people think these days. Well, not just maybe, that is a very dangerous delusion.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1601 by AZPaul3, posted 02-01-2019 6:17 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1608 by AZPaul3, posted 02-01-2019 10:04 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 1603 of 1748 (848231)
02-01-2019 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1600 by Faith
02-01-2019 6:07 PM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
Faith writes:

Yes original sin is foundational and jesus would have died only for that but the fact is that we all sin personally all the time BECAUSE we inherit original sin. So you can't get away with saying he died for a sin nobody committed.

I said he died for a sin neither he nor we committed.

Even original sin we commit because we inherit its guilt and its consequences,

That's an insane concept.

but I want to make it easier for you

Ha!

so I emphasize that we all sin personally anyway.

Sure, that's the way god made us.

I'll accept that God did the killing

There you go, that wasn't hard was it?

You have to recognize that the Godhead is one but there are Three Persons who all share in the attiributes of God so that the Son does in fact act independently of the Father and the Holy Spirit acts independently of Father and Son, all three nevertheless being God as to attributes.

I recognise that that's incomprehensible but the important point is that god killed himself (or one of himselves) to atone for sins that neither he now we committed. Got it now?

It's not strikingly obvious why a god would find that a useful thing to do. Like I said, makes no sense.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1600 by Faith, posted 02-01-2019 6:07 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1606 by Faith, posted 02-01-2019 7:26 PM Tangle has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 1604 of 1748 (848232)
02-01-2019 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1600 by Faith
02-01-2019 6:07 PM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
... all three nevertheless being God as to attributes.

What attributes? Do they all shave in the same direction, except the ghost, of course, since he doesn't shave ... does he? Come to think of it he is probably the only one who does.

Is there some kind of ESP among the three of them? Do they "hear" each others' thoughts?

What attributes, M'Lady.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1600 by Faith, posted 02-01-2019 6:07 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1605 by Faith, posted 02-01-2019 7:01 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32933
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1605 of 1748 (848235)
02-01-2019 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1604 by AZPaul3
02-01-2019 6:48 PM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
I really shouldn't bother to answer such silliness but oh well.

They are all three omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. They all inhabit all space everywhere, they all know everything past present and future, they all have power over all things. And they are all INVISIBLE. Until Jesus became incarnate as a human being none of them has a physical body. Now He does and it is His link to us, and the reason He can save us. No angel could save us, it had to be someone human like us. But as to His attributes as God He is invisible as well as omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. All the perfections of love, wisdom, mercy, goodness, justice etc etc etc belong to God. They are really beyond our ability to imagine so trying to explain it is going to miss by light years.

Did Jesus shave? I don't know. Maybe he trimmed his beard.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1604 by AZPaul3, posted 02-01-2019 6:48 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1607 by AZPaul3, posted 02-01-2019 9:36 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
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