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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1606 of 1748 (848239)
02-01-2019 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1603 by Tangle
02-01-2019 6:35 PM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
Time for me to take a break, probably a nap too, because I missed the whole problem here. GOD CAN'T DIE. So God can't "kill himself" anyway. The Son of God can't die, but Jesus the Man could, at least He could after accepting all our sins as His own burden, though as sinless in Himself He couldn't die then either. But carrying our sins in His human body He died for us, was killed for us or whatever. But as God, no, God cannot die.

Nap time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1603 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2019 6:35 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1610 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2019 3:52 AM Faith has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4502
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 1607 of 1748 (848244)
02-01-2019 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1605 by Faith
02-01-2019 7:01 PM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
They are all three omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. They all inhabit all space everywhere, they all know everything past present and future, they all have power over all things. And they are all INVISIBLE.
...
But as to His attributes as God He is invisible as well as omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. All the perfections of love, wisdom, mercy, goodness, justice etc etc etc belong to God.

Right. And I'm the Prince of Wales.

Did Jesus shave? I don't know. Maybe he trimmed his beard.

Beard is very good. A trimmed beard is even better. Very handsome. I know. I have a devil of a time with all these people trying to make me their god.

OK maybe not that many.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1605 by Faith, posted 02-01-2019 7:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4502
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 1608 of 1748 (848246)
02-01-2019 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1602 by Faith
02-01-2019 6:29 PM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
it is endemic to the human race that people kill each other all the time for all kinds of reasons.

Yes it is with a lot more people taking advantage of that proclivity to get rich and control the agenda especially on the right.

But we don't have to except this as status quo. We can help change this. Economically we must assure everyone, at least as many as we can when we can, clear and reasonable access to water, food, shelter and health care. Then we can work on productivity, self-reliance and the atheist agenda.

But we have to start. We haven't even started. We are doing near nothing to help each other. Only ourselves.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1602 by Faith, posted 02-01-2019 6:29 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1609 by Faith, posted 02-02-2019 12:32 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1609 of 1748 (848249)
02-02-2019 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1608 by AZPaul3
02-01-2019 10:04 PM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
it is endemic to the human race that people kill each other all the time for all kinds of reasons.

Yes it is with a lot more people taking advantage of that proclivity to get rich and control the agenda especially on the right.

I was making the simple point that the reason blood is prominent in the Bible has nothing to do with some particular love of bloodshed in the Bible but with the sad fact that bloodshed is simply what the human race does. Forget the Bible, forget Christianity, you've still got a whole world with a long history of war and murder.

But we don't have to except this as status quo. We can help change this.

I dread hearing what your plan for this change might be. You have no sense of fallen human nature for starters, and a Leftist madness on top of it.

And as a matter of fact in the West we've gone far in that direction in the formation of western socieities with liberty and justice for all. And a lot of that came out of the influence of Christianity. In fact without Christianity, whatever other influences may have been involved, this kind of society could not have existed at all.

Economically we must assure everyone, at least as many as we can when we can, clear and reasonable access to water, food, shelter and health care.

And this has been achieved in western societies to a phenomenal extent, again mostly because of our Christian heritage, and our capitalistic system which encourages individual creativity and enterprise and eventually brought about the wealthiest nation in the world with the wealthiest poor class.

If the Left would stop trying to change things to fit their crazy utopian theories that only lead to murder, mayhem, a tyrannical ruling class and extreme poverty for everybody else, and pursue the same strategies that have always worked, with small tweaks where necessary, it would only get better, but if the Left has their way we'll all be poor again.

And America also does a lot to help other countries. Unfortunately if they are not somehow led to form the kind of government that made the difference for us they will not be able to overcome their poverty. Socialist governments pit a tyrannical rulling class against the people and guarantee equal poverty for all below that class.

Then we can work on productivity, self-reliance and the atheist agenda.

Where do you plan to do this? We already have those things here so all you could accomplish with a Leftist version would be to undo it all.

we have to start. We haven't even started. We are doing near nothing to help each other. Only ourselves.

As I said, if you want to help the rest of the world you have to get them to choose to form a government on our model. I don't think that's going to be easy to accomplish. And you aren't even thinking of that, are you? You've got the usual failed Leftist utopian nightmares in mind which you are all cramming down our throats at every opportunity.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1608 by AZPaul3, posted 02-01-2019 10:04 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1611 by AZPaul3, posted 02-02-2019 7:45 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1610 of 1748 (848251)
02-02-2019 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1606 by Faith
02-01-2019 7:26 PM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
Faith writes:

GOD CAN'T DIE. So God can't "kill himself" anyway.

Right so you've now said the exact opposite of what you said before.

Faith writes:

I'll accept that God did the killing because I wouldn't be a good Calvinist if I didn't

I don't blame you for being confused because once again, you're locked inside a paradox. Jesus can't be both god and man. It's either or. He can't be a god because, as you say, you can't kill a god. But if he was a man the whole shebang is utterly pointess even inside its own tortured pseudo-logic.

The Son of God can't die, but Jesus the Man could, at least He could after accepting all our sins as His own burden, though as sinless in Himself He couldn't die then either. But carrying our sins in His human body He died for us, was killed for us or whatever. But as God, no, God cannot die.

It's all a bit of a nonsense isn't it? How can a god killing a man 2,000 years ago make amends for Adam eating an apple god knows how many years earlier? And how can that have anything to do with us?

How come your all powerful, all present, all knowing god couldn't think of a more comprehensible way of dealing with all this? And if he knew it was all going to happen, why not stop it all before it starts?

All these weird rationalisations make absolutely no sense at all and is really embarassing to hear.

On the otherhand it's all easily explained as primitive people believing that blood sacrafices appeased their imaginary gods and inventing a whole pack of nonsense thereafter.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1606 by Faith, posted 02-01-2019 7:26 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1614 by Faith, posted 02-02-2019 10:09 AM Tangle has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4502
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 1611 of 1748 (848252)
02-02-2019 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1609 by Faith
02-02-2019 12:32 AM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
Oh I don’t have a plan, as it were, just I can’t stop thinking that we may be able to impact the situation by taking away one the biggest excuses violent people use to hide their true nature and falsely motivate their followers.

Get rid of religion.

Unfortunately lions, tigers and bears are in short supply and can’t eat all the Christians we have. Besides, that much fat, cholesterol and gluten is probably not good for the lion’s health.

So I’m thinking we need to jawbone the coming generations through forums like this into abandoning the evil religions of the past in favor of us all sitting around the campfire holding hands singing kumbaya at each other.

Open to revision, of course, especially that singing part.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1609 by Faith, posted 02-02-2019 12:32 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1612 by Faith, posted 02-02-2019 9:51 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1612 of 1748 (848263)
02-02-2019 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1611 by AZPaul3
02-02-2019 7:45 AM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
The idea that there is any violence in Christianity is so insane I think you must have spent your life in some weird kind of indoctrination cult. Where do you get such an insane idea?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1611 by AZPaul3, posted 02-02-2019 7:45 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1613 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2019 9:59 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1615 by AZPaul3, posted 02-02-2019 10:36 AM Faith has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6550
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 1613 of 1748 (848265)
02-02-2019 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1612 by Faith
02-02-2019 9:51 AM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
Trolling

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1612 by Faith, posted 02-02-2019 9:51 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1614 of 1748 (848267)
02-02-2019 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1610 by Tangle
02-02-2019 3:52 AM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
Yes I did say it wrong before, not thinking. Jesus was goth God and Man but He could only die as Man. But the other statement about God doing the killing wasn't wrong, it's just that God can't be killed, only the Man Jesus could be killed. And scripture says in separate places that God did it and that Jesus Himself laid down His own life.

I'm not at all confused. Jesus is both God and Man and that is standard Christian theology. We don't have to understand how things like that are possible, God is beyond our comprehension, but scripture is clear that it is the case so we know it is the case. Scripture contains the descriptions we rely on.

Yes I know you think you are smarter than God, but it all hangs together if you bother to learn about it. The fact is that death is the consequence of sin or disobedience to God. Death was the consequence of eating the forbidden fruit and it is the consequence of every sin we commit, playing out in a variety of infirmities until the whole body dies. As scripture says "the wages of sin is death."

So death in the place of the sinner is the solution. Animal death was only a token of what is really needed to free us since we aren't animals. The death must be the death of a human being. But it can't be a fallen human being, it has to be a perfectly sinless human being to effect the necessary remission of sin.

The consequence of sin, or death, has to be fulfilled, it can't just be cancelled by decree, but our own death just sends us all to Hell. But if God paid the price for us, becoming Man so that He could do that, then He frees us from that consequence into eternal life.

Instead of assuming that two thousand years of believers are all idiots, especially if you have any sense at all of some of the great minds among us, ought to give you pause in your rush to come to the silliest possible conclusions. But it doesn't and it won't. Too bad.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1610 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2019 3:52 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1618 by ringo, posted 02-02-2019 10:54 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1619 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2019 11:23 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4502
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 1615 of 1748 (848274)
02-02-2019 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1612 by Faith
02-02-2019 9:51 AM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
History.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1612 by Faith, posted 02-02-2019 9:51 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1617 by Faith, posted 02-02-2019 10:48 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17272
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1616 of 1748 (848277)
02-02-2019 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1597 by Thugpreacha
02-01-2019 4:11 PM


Re: Incredulous Drivel
Phat writes:

Im talking about our prospects after death.


That isn't what you said.

Phat writes:

Using evidence as your core belief (seeing is believing) you will stop speculating on any hypotheticals...


Nonsense. Science is all about speculating on hypotheticals. The difference is that science tests the hypotheticals and throws away the ones that don't pass the test. You don't. You cling to your failed hypotheticals.

Phat writes:

... citing loch ness and Loki as equally likely as a Creator of all seen and unseen....


They are equivalent. They are all failed hypotheticals.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1597 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-01-2019 4:11 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1617 of 1748 (848278)
02-02-2019 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1615 by AZPaul3
02-02-2019 10:36 AM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
Absolutly not history. History shows the exact opposite. Unless you mean the inquisition but that was from the power crazed Roman Church not from Christianity, and in any case it didn't rise to a tenth of the bloodshed committed by Communism and Nazism in the last century. Which is what the Left is working so hard to bring back to us. Or the murders of Islam either.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1615 by AZPaul3, posted 02-02-2019 10:36 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1620 by AZPaul3, posted 02-02-2019 11:57 AM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17272
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1618 of 1748 (848279)
02-02-2019 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1614 by Faith
02-02-2019 10:09 AM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
Faith writes:

Yes I did say it wrong before, not thinking.


You should have that put on a T-shirt.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1614 by Faith, posted 02-02-2019 10:09 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1619 of 1748 (848283)
02-02-2019 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1614 by Faith
02-02-2019 10:09 AM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
Faith writes:

Yes I did say it wrong before, not thinking.

The thing is, it doesn't matter. You don't have to think you make up anything you want.

Jesus was goth

That explains a lot.

but He could only die as Man.

Yeh, tricky that.

But the other statement about God doing the killing wasn't wrong, it's just that God can't be killed,

Ha!

only the Man Jesus could be killed. And scripture says in separate places that God did it and that Jesus Himself laid down His own life. I'm not at all confused.

Of course you're not confused - you've made a life of living with contradiction and paradox. You can believe quite literally anything.

Jesus is both God and Man and that is standard Christian theology.

Yeh, and it's total bollox isn't it?

We don't have to understand how things like that are possible,

Well that's just as well isn't it, 'cos it passeth all understanding.

God is beyond our comprehension,

Handy that. Invisible too.

but scripture is clear that it is the case so we know it is the case. Scripture contains the descriptions we rely on.

Which proves that scripture is as believable as a Marvel comic.

Yes I know you think you are smarter than God, but it all hangs together

It hangs together so well that you admit to not understanding it.

The fact is that death is the consequence of sin or disobedience to God. Death was the consequence of eating the forbidden fruit and it is the consequence of every sin we commit, playing out in a variety of infirmities until the whole body dies. As scripture says "the wages of sin is death."

Jesus died so that we won't die, yet we die anyway. It would be a tad more undersandable that when he died to make up for eating the apple, we were all returned to the Garden of Eden. As it is nothing changed.

So death in the place of the sinner is the solution.

Yeh that makes total sense. Not.

Instead of assuming that two thousand years of believers are all idiots, especially if you have any sense at all of some of the great minds among us, ought to give you pause in your rush to come to the silliest possible conclusions.

A god killing himself - even though he can't die - to atone for the mythical sin of an ancestor so that those who didn't commit the sin won't die - although they do anyway. It's definately a puzzle why anyone would swallow that crap, but religion is a powerful thing.

Too bad.

Indeed.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1614 by Faith, posted 02-02-2019 10:09 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4502
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 1620 of 1748 (848287)
02-02-2019 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1617 by Faith
02-02-2019 10:48 AM


Re: God did not "kill himself"
Absolutly not history. History shows the exact opposite.

Of course it does.

The most violent, mean, openly malicious, intolerant and evil catechism ever devised by the black heart of man was just a simple misunderstanding among your clarics and their kings.

Turns out you were a poster child for your newly emerged equally black-hearted sister, Islam.

Your religion set such an excellent example of how not to do life.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1617 by Faith, posted 02-02-2019 10:48 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1621 by Faith, posted 02-02-2019 6:32 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
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