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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Faith
Member
Posts: 32923
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1621 of 1748 (848292)
02-02-2019 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1620 by AZPaul3
02-02-2019 11:57 AM


The atheist denounces evil evil Christianity
What are you talking about? In that time period you're talking about Romanism, though, not Christianity.

Whatever it is, are you seriously suggesting it outdid the Russian Revolution, Stalinist murders, the Holocaust, Pol Pot, the Cambodian killing fields, Mao's murders, Rwanda and so on and so forth? (Actually, Rwanda WAS provoked by religion: a Catholic bishop who riled up the Hutus against the Tutsis or was it the other way around, by calling the victim group "cockroaches" over the radio. They had no reason to hate them except for that propaganda campaign. But the others don't have a religious motive that I know of.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1620 by AZPaul3, posted 02-02-2019 11:57 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    
candle2
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 1622 of 1748 (848315)
02-03-2019 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1591 by Tangle
02-01-2019 8:42 AM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This verse is so well written that a 7 year old, near the end of the 2nd grade, should u/s it w/o any difficulty.

Before anything else existed a Being known as the Word was with God (Theos). And the Word was also God (Theos).

In Genesis God (Elohim) said "let there be light." God (Elohim) also said "let us make man in our own image, after our likeness."

Both Elohim and Theos are plural in form but single in grammatical usage. They are words similar to: group or committee. One group but many members; one committee but many members; one God but, at the present time, two persons

John 1:14
and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us as Jesus.

The Apostle Thomas u/s, and u/s clearly, that Jesus was both Lord and God. John 20:28.

Jesus is also the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Rev. 18,11 ; 21:6 ; 22:13.

Jesus u/s that His Father is greater than He Himself is, but Jesus is still a member of the God family.

When the two God Beings decided that they wanted a family (a family that they can share the universe with) the status between them changed, not in their love for each other, but in the image they project

The vast majority of pastors; priests; Muslims; etc... are convinced that Satan and his demons will live forever in hell (gehenna), but I don't believe this.

Their reasoning is that spirit beings cannot die. But, cannot God kill that which is undesireable?

If Jesus' powerful mind could be reduced to that of a mere child, couldn't the same God destroy His enemies?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1591 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2019 8:42 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1623 by Tangle, posted 02-03-2019 11:27 AM candle2 has not yet responded
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 1623 of 1748 (848316)
02-03-2019 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1622 by candle2
02-03-2019 11:11 AM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
candle2 writes:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God......etc etc

In the beginning was superstition.

I don't care what you bloody book says - it's mythology written for primitive people who had no other explanation for anything that happened to them and has been exploited by kings and charlatans for centuries thereafter.

Quoting that stuff as though it had any explanatory value at all is a waste of electrons. Try again.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1622 by candle2, posted 02-03-2019 11:11 AM candle2 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1627 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-03-2019 4:18 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17292
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 1624 of 1748 (848325)
02-03-2019 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1622 by candle2
02-03-2019 11:11 AM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
candle2 writes:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
This verse is so well written that a 7 year old, near the end of the 2nd grade, should u/s it w/o any difficulty.


I wouldn't call it "well written". I'd call it more of a riddle.
Q: How is a raven like a writing desk?
A: Poe wrote on both.
A 7-year-old might remember the answer if it was taught to him but he'd be unlikely to figure it out for himself.

It might even be the answer that John was trying to contrive but that doesn't make it true.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1622 by candle2, posted 02-03-2019 11:11 AM candle2 has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 1625 of 1748 (848333)
02-03-2019 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1622 by candle2
02-03-2019 11:11 AM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
In the beginning was the Word...

Then it was really late. We'd already been here for 13.7+- billion years before any of those showed up. Trying to starting another creation right where/when one is already going is rather fumble-fingered and feeble-minded I would think. Just how old is this god?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1622 by candle2, posted 02-03-2019 11:11 AM candle2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1626 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-03-2019 4:15 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 1645 by candle2, posted 02-05-2019 9:19 AM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 1674 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-10-2019 11:35 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1626 of 1748 (848337)
02-03-2019 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1625 by AZPaul3
02-03-2019 2:54 PM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
There are many ways to hypothesize this. Words were words in the beginning...even before humans could so much as utter syllables. Words exist to express ideas long before the "messenger" grows enough to express them.

I don't believe that the authors themselves were inspirational beyond the norm for humanity. There are different words and different philosophies expressed through words. The text seems to suggest that The Word supersedes random words and dueling philosophies. Our challenge is to attempt to find cohesion between 66 books and many authors to see if they all have mere words or The Word. Our other challenge is to determine the characteristics of The Word vs simply words and philosophies.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1625 by AZPaul3, posted 02-03-2019 2:54 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1631 by AZPaul3, posted 02-03-2019 5:54 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1627 of 1748 (848338)
02-03-2019 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1623 by Tangle
02-03-2019 11:27 AM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
Tangle writes:

it's mythology written for primitive people who had no other explanation for anything that happened to them and has been exploited by kings and charlatans for centuries thereafter.

Quoting that stuff as though it had any explanatory value at all is a waste of electrons. Try again.

So now that we humans supposedly have explanations, who discovered the explanations? We did, you say? So we have become our own answer to our earlier questions? We have become the word of knowledge ourselves? I don't think so. Try again.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1623 by Tangle, posted 02-03-2019 11:27 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1628 by Tangle, posted 02-03-2019 4:39 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 1632 by AZPaul3, posted 02-03-2019 6:09 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 1628 of 1748 (848341)
02-03-2019 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1627 by Thugpreacha
02-03-2019 4:18 PM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
Phat writes:

So now that we humans supposedly have explanations, who discovered the explanations? We did, you say? So we have become our own answer to our earlier questions? We have become the word of knowledge ourselves?

If by all this you simply mean that we are beginning to understand things about our universe, then sure. Do you find that controversial?

I don't think so.

You don't think that we're learning things? Really?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1627 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-03-2019 4:18 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1629 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-03-2019 4:43 PM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1629 of 1748 (848342)
02-03-2019 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1628 by Tangle
02-03-2019 4:39 PM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
Im just saying that we alone are not our best answer. You may argue that the evidence shows this to be all we have. Thus we continue to discuss evidence vs belief. I just wish there were some way I could make an argument for evidence backing belief, but so far I cant. So I need to get to work.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1628 by Tangle, posted 02-03-2019 4:39 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1630 by Tangle, posted 02-03-2019 5:00 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 1630 of 1748 (848345)
02-03-2019 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1629 by Thugpreacha
02-03-2019 4:43 PM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
Phat writes:

Im just saying that we alone are not our best answer.

We're all we've got. Best make the best of it Chuck.

You may argue that the evidence shows this to be all we have.

There ya go. But that's not all of it. Sure, there's no evidence for your god, but there's also stack of evidence that your god is fictional.

Thus we continue to discuss evidence vs belief. I just wish there were some way I could make an argument for evidence backing belief, but so far I cant.

You can't and no-one ever has. Or ever will.

But not only that, you can't even answer questions about what you actually believe - stuff like suffering, why bad things happen to decent god fearing people like yourself, why god couldn't simply create a heaven for us instead of jumping through all those preposterous hoops of having to kill himself for no sane reason. And so on.

So I need to get to work.

He ain't helping you with that either, is he?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1629 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-03-2019 4:43 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 1631 of 1748 (848348)
02-03-2019 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1626 by Thugpreacha
02-03-2019 4:15 PM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
Words were words in the beginning...even before humans could so much as utter syllables. Words exist to express ideas long before the "messenger" grows enough to express them.

Sorry. No.

"Word" or words don't exist outside the human who conjures them up until she speaks them.

(One of my sexist pig moments because I'm partial to the idea that it was the pre-proto-human female who first associated a made-up vocal sound with an abstract idea.)

Anyway, no human, no word. Not even the idea of word.

I don't believe that the authors themselves were inspirational beyond the norm for humanity.

A most likely case. Rather strongly so since even out there in the 3rd standard deviation under the curve and beyond we're still pretty much "inspirational"-less.

There are different words and different philosophies expressed through words.

Yeah. What we do with them can be amazing. Bob Dylan, Mark Twain, and, oh how Harper Lee and Charles Dickens could put visions together.

The text seems to suggest that The Word supersedes random words and dueling philosophies.

Well, in my view the text can too easily suggest whatever the holder wants to see, but, in this case, I think it's clear the author had a special image, a special emotional extra meaning attached to "Word".

And, of course, what could possibly have existed before anything else at all? Sure, a human utterance. We were the greatest intellect around for 1000s of miles as evidenced most profoundly by our communications abilities. So, if this god is supposed to be so much even greater then we, well, the very height of intellect was already known to be "words".

So, ok, the very first thing was the word.

A problem I have with this is what word was it? I rather like "Häagen-Dazs Chocolate Ice Cream" as the very first word but that's more of a phrase so it probably doesn't count.

Our challenge is to attempt to find cohesion between 66 books and many authors to see if they all have mere words or The Word.

We could give them each an award for spinning one hell of a yarn, except we can't seem to determine who, actually, they were. Other than that, I think the next best thing to do would be to ignore them.

Our other challenge is to determine the characteristics of The Word vs simply words and philosophies.

Ok, cue the unicorns!

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1626 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-03-2019 4:15 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1636 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-04-2019 7:52 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 1632 of 1748 (848349)
02-03-2019 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1627 by Thugpreacha
02-03-2019 4:18 PM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
We have become the word of knowledge ourselves?

Well, we did eat from that tree, right? The one with the talking snake wrapped around it?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1627 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-03-2019 4:18 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 1633 of 1748 (848350)
02-03-2019 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1591 by Tangle
02-01-2019 8:42 AM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
God is omnipotent. God knew that Adam would sin. Before the world was created Jesus knew that He would have to redeem Hans from the death penalty.

The wages of sin is death, and sin is the transgression of God's laws.

Of course God knew that Adam would disobey Him. But in God's ultimate plan this was necessary.

Before humans or animals were created Satan and the angels under him were placed on earth to put the finishing touches to it, like icing on a cake.

Remember that God is a Creator. One could say that creating is God's occupation. After humans are resurrected into the God family, they will also create.

Along the way Satan (who is the most powerful being that the Word could create by fiat) became vain and conceted. He too wanted to be worshiped.

Satan didn't stand a chance, but from the fact that he thought he could overthrow God we u/s that he is extremely powerful.

God could have destroyed Satan at that time, but God had a better plan.

Satan's way is the way of "get." It is self- centered and appeals to the vanity in each of us.

God's way is the way of "give." It is outgoing love and concern for others.

God explained to Adam that He (God) only knew the way to true happiness, but He also knew that Adam would have to experience the differences the two ways.

God is not out to save the world during this present age. He is allowing all of us to experience the way of "get" ant the depravity that comes with it.

Satan is still the ruler of this world, during this present age. He and his way is the root cause of all human misery.

But, his time is running short. Christ will soon return to establish His Kingdom on earth. Everyone who God called out down through the ages will the be resurrected and rule with Him. Each will fill a position in His government.

Every human who has ever lived will be resurrected (in the 2nd resurrection and told that they deserve the death penalty, but that Christ Himself has paid that price for us.

Each will then be taught the wats of God. They will also have access to His Holy Spirit and it's power to transform their lives.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1591 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2019 8:42 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1634 by AZPaul3, posted 02-03-2019 7:49 PM candle2 has not yet responded
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 1634 of 1748 (848354)
02-03-2019 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1633 by candle2
02-03-2019 6:48 PM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
Doesn't the bible say no one can know the mind and plan of god?

But you seem to have him pegged pretty well. Like maybe you were in on the planning.

Normally such knowledge is reserved for charlatans. You must be a charlatan. Are you a charlatan?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1633 by candle2, posted 02-03-2019 6:48 PM candle2 has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 1635 of 1748 (848382)
02-04-2019 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1633 by candle2
02-03-2019 6:48 PM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
Not worth the candle2 writes:

God is omnipotent. God knew that Adam would sin. Before the world was created Jesus knew that He would have to redeem Hans from the death penalty.
The wages of sin is death, and sin is the transgression of God's laws.

Etc, etc, etc

Of course God knew that Adam would disobey Him. But in God's ultimate plan this was necessary.

I see you have abandonned argument for preaching. But I have a better work of fiction.

“In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort.”


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1633 by candle2, posted 02-03-2019 6:48 PM candle2 has not yet responded

  
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