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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 331 of 1748 (836199)
07-12-2018 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by Faith
07-12-2018 12:15 AM


Re: The Olivet Discourse
Faith writes:
Tradition says the New testament was written by the people whose names are on the books. Tradition that goes back to the beginning.
No Faith, most chapters of Club Christian realized hundreds of years ago that the stories in the Old and New Testament were only attributed to the person named as author and that in fact they were written and edited and redacted and modified by unknown people at unknown times.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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 Message 325 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 12:15 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by Phat, posted 07-17-2018 9:05 AM jar has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 332 of 1748 (836200)
07-12-2018 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by Phat
07-12-2018 4:28 AM


Re: Its Greek To Me
An apologist - by definition - is interested in defending a particular view rather than in discovering the truth. Hence an apologist is biased - by definition.
If bias is your concern you should trust scholars - scholars acting as scholars - over apologists.
And that’s before considering how bad apologetics can get.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 333 of 1748 (836201)
07-12-2018 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by Phat
07-12-2018 4:28 AM


Re: Its Greek To Me
Fifty million Frenchmen can be wrong.
Of course Apologists have an agenda; to defend their particular Christianity, Dogma and God they created. That is what "Apologist" means. It states that what is actually written should be ignored or interpreted to fit the dogma.
The big difference between Christian Apologists and Jewish Apologists though is honesty. If you read the Jewish Talmuds you are immediately struck by the fact that in the Talmud each sction includes relevant quotes from a succession of Rabbis each presenting a different interpretation or conclusion with NO single answer defined as authoritative. It is the exact opposite of the Christian Apologists position that their position is authoritative.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 334 of 1748 (836206)
07-12-2018 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by GDR
07-12-2018 2:30 AM


Re: The Olivet Discourse
All that stuff like tht there ever was a "Q" or any other precursor doctuments to the current text of the Bible is nothing but the wild imaginings of so called "scholars." They have no evide3nce, it's all their own speculations. The Bible was written as we find it, by the people it is attributed to, or under their authority in the case of Moses, and who cares if parts of it were cop0ied from other parts, that does not change the basic facts. The "scholars" should never have been allowed to get their filthy profane hands on it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by GDR, posted 07-12-2018 2:30 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by GDR, posted 07-12-2018 1:39 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 335 of 1748 (836207)
07-12-2018 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by Phat
07-12-2018 4:28 AM


Re: Its Greek To Me
Phat writes:
The Zondervan source is not known for revisionist thinking....
Faith uses "revisionist" as a swear-word, as if the "traditional" ideas should never be challenged. There's nothing wrong with revising our thinking as new evidence is discovered. Remember how bleeding was traditional before medical science revised its thinking?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 12:43 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 336 of 1748 (836214)
07-12-2018 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by ringo
07-12-2018 12:21 PM


Re: Its Greek To Me
Traditional views should NOT every be challenged, except by other traditionalists on minor points. The antisupernatural scholars have no business saying anything at all about it.
Come Soon, Lord Jesus, before this planet gets even crazier.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by ringo, posted 07-12-2018 12:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by ringo, posted 07-12-2018 12:50 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 338 by PaulK, posted 07-12-2018 12:51 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 337 of 1748 (836220)
07-12-2018 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by Faith
07-12-2018 12:43 PM


Re: Its Greek To Me
Faith writes:
Traditional views should NOT every be challenged...
Did you read my post at all? Did you miss this part?
quote:
Remember how bleeding was traditional before medical science revised its thinking?
Do you think we should still be bleeding people because it's traditional? Come on. Use your head for once.
Faith writes:
... except by other traditionalists on minor points.
That's like saying nobody should challenge criminals except other criminals - a truly idiotic statement.
Faith writes:
The antisupernatural scholars have no business saying anything at all about it.
It has nothing to do with the supernatural. It has to do with looking at the facts, like medical science looked at the facts and decided that the tradition of bleeding was more harmful than helpful.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 12:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 338 of 1748 (836222)
07-12-2018 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by Faith
07-12-2018 12:43 PM


Re: Its Greek To Me
quote:
Traditional views should NOT every be challenged, except by other traditionalists on minor points
So the Reformation was a horrible mistake ?
quote:
Come Soon, Lord Jesus, before this planet gets even crazier.
Maybe you should stop adding to the craziness then.
Seriously, this silly diversion - all because you want the Gospels to exactly reproduce Jesus’ words, and don’t care about whether it’s true or not - is the craziest thing in this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 12:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 339 of 1748 (836226)
07-12-2018 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by Faith
07-12-2018 12:11 PM


Re: The Olivet Discourse
Faith writes:
All that stuff like tht there ever was a "Q" or any other precursor doctuments to the current text of the Bible is nothing but the wild imaginings of so called "scholars." They have no evide3nce, it's all their own speculations. The Bible was written as we find it, by the people it is attributed to, or under their authority in the case of Moses, and who cares if parts of it were cop0ied from other parts, that does not change the basic facts. The "scholars" should never have been allowed to get their filthy profane hands on it.
I even gave you the quote from Luke where he says quite clearly that it came from previous sources, and those sources came from eyewitnesses of the events and/or early followers.
I also say thank you Lord for the Christian scholars who can make sense of the Scriptures in their historical context, so that we don't twist them into something they were ever intended to be by 21st century readers with only a 21st century understanding of language.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 12:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 4:20 PM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 340 of 1748 (836227)
07-12-2018 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by GDR
07-12-2018 1:39 PM


Re: The Olivet Discourse
No, Luke does NOT say he got his material from others. What he says is that a lot has already been written and it's well known among people, but he thought he would ALSO write his own account, since he believed he had a specially good understanding of it, much of which he'd heard from eyewitnesses among other things. If he was saying he'd taken it from others then that would have been recognized all along but as far as I know nobody had such an idea about it until the scholars you admire.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by GDR, posted 07-12-2018 1:39 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Tangle, posted 07-12-2018 4:35 PM Faith has replied
 Message 343 by GDR, posted 07-12-2018 6:01 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 341 of 1748 (836229)
07-12-2018 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Faith
07-12-2018 4:20 PM


Re: The Olivet Discourse
Wht you've got is hearsay and literary criticism.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 4:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 4:36 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 342 of 1748 (836230)
07-12-2018 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by Tangle
07-12-2018 4:35 PM


Re: The Olivet Discourse
What YOU've got is total ignorance.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Tangle, posted 07-12-2018 4:35 PM Tangle has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 343 of 1748 (836236)
07-12-2018 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Faith
07-12-2018 4:20 PM


Re: The Olivet Discourse
Faith writes:
No, Luke does NOT say he got his material from others. What he says is that a lot has already been written and it's well known among people, but he thought he would ALSO write his own account, since he believed he had a specially good understanding of it, much of which he'd heard from eyewitnesses among other things. If he was saying he'd taken it from others then that would have been recognized all along but as far as I know nobody had such an idea about it until the scholars you admire.
OK. Let's look at what Luke says.
quote:
Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
He clearly states that others have written up accounts, (likely the other synoptic Gospels included), "JUST" as they were handed down by the eyewitnesses and the first Jesus followers. He carefully investigated everything from the beginning so that he could write an orderly account. It is likely he used his own wording or he may have copied verbatim the earlier material but that isn't the point.
I would add that some discount the Gospel accounts as they were written later in the first century but the material in the Gospels comes from much earlier accounts.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 4:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 7:32 PM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 344 of 1748 (836237)
07-12-2018 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by GDR
07-12-2018 6:01 PM


Re: The Olivet Discourse
Luke is saying he has knowledge worth ADDING to the other accounts, since he's saying the basics of the faith are already known to believers, who include himself and Theophilus to whom he is writing. He wouldn't be intending to write the same information he's just said is already well known to believers.. And his gospel includes information that is NOT IN the other accounts. It is his own work, based on his own research, which most people think includes interviews of Mary herself. There is nothing about Luke's account that suggests reliance on others at all. there is a massive ABSENCE of evidence for any "Q" source.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by NoNukes, posted 07-12-2018 8:30 PM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 345 of 1748 (836240)
07-12-2018 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Faith
07-12-2018 7:32 PM


Re: The Olivet Discourse
Luke is saying he has knowledge worth ADDING to the other accounts, since he's saying the basics of the faith are already known to believers, who include himself and Theophilus to whom he is writing.
This is ridiculous. Luke was not a first hand witness. Everything he writes comes from the account or accounts of someone else That is not the least bit controversial.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 7:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 8:33 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 347 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 9:01 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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