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Author | Topic: Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
I compare prohibition of abortion with prohibition of alcohol and prohibition of drugs. I'm pretty sure they occurred at nowhere near the rate they've been occurring since Roe v. Wade. The evidence seems to be that prohibition of alcohol in the 1920s did not decrease consumption. It did spawn organized crime. Similarly, prohibition of drugs in our time doesn't seem to decrease consumption. It continues to support organized crime and in addition it has spawned an "enforcement" industry that is very expensive for the taxpayer.
Faith writes:
I'm sure somebody would be willing to teach you. Starting with the fact that abortion is not murder, not in the Bible and probably not even in your own mind, if you're honest. Do you want to execute young women for having abortions? Seems to me the solution would have to involve a lot of clear teaching about what abortion really is....And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Don't be silly. Murder involves punishment. You can't splatter the word "murder" around without considering punishment.
Read what I wrote, nothing to do with punishing anyone. Faith writes:
I've told you this before: I am not in favour of abortion. I'm sure you've seen those ultrasound images of babies at twelve weeks? All human parts are there, head, torso, arms, legs, fingers and toes. They sometimes even suck their thumbs on those images. Their hearts beat steadily. So, let's see, if we kill it before twelve weeks then we can be sure it wasn't a human being?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Fath writes:
If you don't think it's murder, don't call it murder. If you call it murder, you have to consider punishment.
Most women don't think that's what they are doing when they have an abortion, I didn't, so punishment is not relevant. Faith writes:
I argue as if I was in favour of minding my own damn business. If you really care about how women feel, you won't make them feel worse about their decision. Since you aren't in favor of abortion please don't argue as if you were.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
That's an simplistic attempt to generalize how all women feel. In reality, for every woman who regrets having an abortion you'll find one who is glad she did.
If I really care about how women feel I will tell them it is a real baby so they won't kill it and have that on their conscience. And as I already said many women's depression says they know it anyway despite convincing themselves otherwise. Faith writes:
There is nothing in the Bible against abortion. The Levitical law clearly treats an unborn fetus as the father's property, not a human being. But I am also concerned about God's punishing a nation for such wholesale legal slaughter of the unborn, along with a growing list of other violations of His law.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
No it doesn't. As I said, it treats the unborn fetus as the father's property, the same as an ox. In Exodus 21:22, note the phrasing, "... so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow...." The loss of the fetus is not considered "mischief".
the Bible treats human life as beginning at conception... Faith writes:
As I've pointed out, abortion is not fine and dandy with the bible. It is destruction of property, which is subject to compensation. It is not, by any stretch of the imagination, murder. ... don't give me this about how abortion is just fine and dandy with the Bible.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
The Bible denies it. It's a living human being and it is self-delusion to deny it.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
And I showed that it doesn't. Either the Bible contradicts itself (it does) or you're misinterpreting your quotes (you are). I gave a couple of quotes showing that the Bible recognizes us as persons even in the womb.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
Don't lose the plot here. The point of the thread is that evangelicals never used to see it that way. They saw it as the Bible sees it - that the fetus is not a "human being". I'd rather start where we know we've got a growing baby, where we know we're killing a living human being. The change in their policy came about the same time that abortion became a safe and accepted medical procedure. It was a reaction to reality, not a reflection of doctrine.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
I'll point out again that it's the evangelical viewpoint that you're disagreeing with.
I disagree with that supposed biblical doctrine... Faith writes:
And I'll point out again that I'm not defending it. ... but killing unborn babies at the rate of fifty million since Roe v Wade, or probably more by now, is not defensible, period.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
But of course it does. It's regarded like an ox - a living being and a valuable one but not a human one.
I should have said that the unborn child's being the property of the father has nothing to do with whether it is a living human being... Faith writes:
It's not an argument "for" abortion. It just denies the "human" argument against abortion. It's what Judaism has always taught and apparently it's what evangelical Christianity taught until recently. And that isn't surprising because it's what the Bible says. ... and it makes no sense that anyone ever used that as an argument for abortion. And if you were honest you would recognize that. You don't advocate executing women who have abortions, so you don't honestly consider abortion murder - so you don' t honestly consider the unborn fetus human.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Of course it does.
The man's owning the child does not make it less than human... Faith writes:
Of course it does. Second-class. The fetus would be third-class or lower because its value to the owner was less.
Isn't it also true that a wife was considered to be her husband's property? Did that make her less than human? Faith writes:
We're talking about a premeditated act here, which is certainly not manslaughter if the fetus is human.
... it's more like manslaughter... Faith writes:
So you're saying that the "crime" is less if the woman doesn't think she's killing a child? ... because the woman usually doesn't think she is killing a child.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Taq writes:
And how much it is wanted. A woman who wants a baby will be devasted about miscarrying while a woman who doesn't want a baby will be more likely to think of it like a gangrenous toe. The more human something looks the more value we put on it.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
Since you're only talking about your version of "The Truth", that ain't gonna happen. As long as you make it a "moral" issue, you're not going to get any agreement. Stopping the lies and promoting the truth would be a BIG start. Make it a practical issue. Provide contraception to anybody who wants it at any time, any where. Stop telling young women that they're "ruining their lives" by getting pregnant. Provide women who have unplanned pregnancies with all of the support they can stand. Instead of trying to prevent certain aspects of human behaviour, we should let people live their own lives and help them to make their lives as good as possible.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
I would probably say the same thing - but what you call "truth" isn't.
Truth is truth, it's not mine or yours or anybody's, it's just truth. Faith writes:
Well, I've shown that it clearly isn't true that abortion is murder. You seem to have backed off from that "truth" since the beginning of the thread. So if you think it's not true then you need to argue with what I've already said above to demonstrate what the truth is.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
But you're not. You're not proposing to treat it like a human life. You're not proposing to treat the woman who terminates it the same as those who take a human life. ... we're still talking about taking a human life from conception to birth... You are making it a different situation, so the question is how different.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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