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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 7 of 441 (836565)
07-19-2018 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
07-19-2018 11:48 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
I'm pretty sure they occurred at nowhere near the rate they've been occurring since Roe v. Wade.
I compare prohibition of abortion with prohibition of alcohol and prohibition of drugs.
The evidence seems to be that prohibition of alcohol in the 1920s did not decrease consumption. It did spawn organized crime. Similarly, prohibition of drugs in our time doesn't seem to decrease consumption. It continues to support organized crime and in addition it has spawned an "enforcement" industry that is very expensive for the taxpayer.
Faith writes:
Seems to me the solution would have to involve a lot of clear teaching about what abortion really is....
I'm sure somebody would be willing to teach you. Starting with the fact that abortion is not murder, not in the Bible and probably not even in your own mind, if you're honest. Do you want to execute young women for having abortions?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 11:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 12:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 9 of 441 (836576)
07-19-2018 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
07-19-2018 12:27 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
Read what I wrote, nothing to do with punishing anyone.
Don't be silly. Murder involves punishment. You can't splatter the word "murder" around without considering punishment.
Faith writes:
I'm sure you've seen those ultrasound images of babies at twelve weeks? All human parts are there, head, torso, arms, legs, fingers and toes. They sometimes even suck their thumbs on those images. Their hearts beat steadily. So, let's see, if we kill it before twelve weeks then we can be sure it wasn't a human being?
I've told you this before: I am not in favour of abortion.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 12:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 5:22 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 13 of 441 (836592)
07-19-2018 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
07-19-2018 5:22 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Fath writes:
Most women don't think that's what they are doing when they have an abortion, I didn't, so punishment is not relevant.
If you don't think it's murder, don't call it murder. If you call it murder, you have to consider punishment.
Faith writes:
Since you aren't in favor of abortion please don't argue as if you were.
I argue as if I was in favour of minding my own damn business. If you really care about how women feel, you won't make them feel worse about their decision.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 5:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 5:50 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 15 of 441 (836595)
07-19-2018 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
07-19-2018 5:50 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
If I really care about how women feel I will tell them it is a real baby so they won't kill it and have that on their conscience. And as I already said many women's depression says they know it anyway despite convincing themselves otherwise.
That's an simplistic attempt to generalize how all women feel. In reality, for every woman who regrets having an abortion you'll find one who is glad she did.
Faith writes:
But I am also concerned about God's punishing a nation for such wholesale legal slaughter of the unborn, along with a growing list of other violations of His law.
There is nothing in the Bible against abortion. The Levitical law clearly treats an unborn fetus as the father's property, not a human being.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 5:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 6:26 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 20 of 441 (836608)
07-20-2018 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
07-19-2018 6:26 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
the Bible treats human life as beginning at conception...
No it doesn't. As I said, it treats the unborn fetus as the father's property, the same as an ox. In Exodus 21:22, note the phrasing, "... so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow...." The loss of the fetus is not considered "mischief".
Faith writes:
... don't give me this about how abortion is just fine and dandy with the Bible.
As I've pointed out, abortion is not fine and dandy with the bible. It is destruction of property, which is subject to compensation. It is not, by any stretch of the imagination, murder.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 6:26 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 25 of 441 (836629)
07-20-2018 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
07-20-2018 2:52 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
It's a living human being and it is self-delusion to deny it.
The Bible denies it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 07-20-2018 2:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 07-20-2018 5:34 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 27 of 441 (836647)
07-20-2018 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
07-20-2018 5:34 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
I gave a couple of quotes showing that the Bible recognizes us as persons even in the womb.
And I showed that it doesn't. Either the Bible contradicts itself (it does) or you're misinterpreting your quotes (you are).

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 07-20-2018 5:34 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 38 of 441 (836875)
07-23-2018 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
07-23-2018 4:45 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
I'd rather start where we know we've got a growing baby, where we know we're killing a living human being.
Don't lose the plot here. The point of the thread is that evangelicals never used to see it that way. They saw it as the Bible sees it - that the fetus is not a "human being".
The change in their policy came about the same time that abortion became a safe and accepted medical procedure. It was a reaction to reality, not a reflection of doctrine.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 4:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 5:06 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 441 (836879)
07-23-2018 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Faith
07-23-2018 5:06 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
I disagree with that supposed biblical doctrine...
I'll point out again that it's the evangelical viewpoint that you're disagreeing with.
Faith writes:
... but killing unborn babies at the rate of fifty million since Roe v Wade, or probably more by now, is not defensible, period.
And I'll point out again that I'm not defending it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 5:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 6:37 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 45 of 441 (836889)
07-23-2018 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
07-23-2018 6:37 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
I should have said that the unborn child's being the property of the father has nothing to do with whether it is a living human being...
But of course it does. It's regarded like an ox - a living being and a valuable one but not a human one.
Faith writes:
... and it makes no sense that anyone ever used that as an argument for abortion.
It's not an argument "for" abortion. It just denies the "human" argument against abortion. It's what Judaism has always taught and apparently it's what evangelical Christianity taught until recently. And that isn't surprising because it's what the Bible says.
And if you were honest you would recognize that. You don't advocate executing women who have abortions, so you don't honestly consider abortion murder - so you don' t honestly consider the unborn fetus human.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 6:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 12:27 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 53 of 441 (836921)
07-24-2018 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
07-24-2018 12:27 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
The man's owning the child does not make it less than human...
Of course it does.
Faith writes:
Isn't it also true that a wife was considered to be her husband's property? Did that make her less than human?
Of course it does. Second-class. The fetus would be third-class or lower because its value to the owner was less.
Faith writes:
... it's more like manslaughter...
We're talking about a premeditated act here, which is certainly not manslaughter if the fetus is human.
Faith writes:
... because the woman usually doesn't think she is killing a child.
So you're saying that the "crime" is less if the woman doesn't think she's killing a child?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 12:27 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 63 of 441 (837096)
07-26-2018 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Taq
07-26-2018 5:37 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Taq writes:
The more human something looks the more value we put on it.
And how much it is wanted. A woman who wants a baby will be devasted about miscarrying while a woman who doesn't want a baby will be more likely to think of it like a gangrenous toe.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Taq, posted 07-26-2018 5:37 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Taq, posted 07-27-2018 12:32 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 82 of 441 (837181)
07-28-2018 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
07-28-2018 10:56 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:
Stopping the lies and promoting the truth would be a BIG start.
Since you're only talking about your version of "The Truth", that ain't gonna happen. As long as you make it a "moral" issue, you're not going to get any agreement.
Make it a practical issue. Provide contraception to anybody who wants it at any time, any where. Stop telling young women that they're "ruining their lives" by getting pregnant. Provide women who have unplanned pregnancies with all of the support they can stand.
Instead of trying to prevent certain aspects of human behaviour, we should let people live their own lives and help them to make their lives as good as possible.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 10:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 12:06 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 86 of 441 (837187)
07-28-2018 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
07-28-2018 12:06 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:
Truth is truth, it's not mine or yours or anybody's, it's just truth.
I would probably say the same thing - but what you call "truth" isn't.
Faith writes:
So if you think it's not true then you need to argue with what I've already said above to demonstrate what the truth is.
Well, I've shown that it clearly isn't true that abortion is murder. You seem to have backed off from that "truth" since the beginning of the thread.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 12:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 12:32 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 90 of 441 (837193)
07-28-2018 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
07-28-2018 12:32 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:
... we're still talking about taking a human life from conception to birth...
But you're not. You're not proposing to treat it like a human life. You're not proposing to treat the woman who terminates it the same as those who take a human life.
You are making it a different situation, so the question is how different.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 12:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 12:58 PM ringo has replied

  
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