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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 6 of 441 (836561)
07-19-2018 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
07-19-2018 7:45 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Yes I had one of those illegal abortions. I'm pretty sure they occurred at nowhere near the rate they've been occurring since Roe v. Wade.
No, I'd rather not see us revert to the earlier state of things but legally murdering something like, what, fifty mllion babies? Is not where we want to be either.
Seems to me the solution would have to involve a lot of clear teaching about what abortion really is, make the women aware that it really is a baby they are killing, and provide services to help them through the pregnancy and delivery of the child, counseling on adoption options and help to keep it if they choose. These services are available now through many churches across the US, but Planned Parenthood pushes killing the baby and works against giving the pregnant girl or woman information that might lead her to reject that solution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 07-19-2018 7:45 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 07-19-2018 12:03 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 8 of 441 (836569)
07-19-2018 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
07-19-2018 12:03 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Read what I wrote, nothing to do with punishing anyone.
I'm sure you've seen those ultrasound images of babies at twelve weeks? All human parts are there, head, torso, arms, legs, fingers and toes. They sometimes even suck their thumbs on those images. Their hearts beat steadily. So, let's see, if we kill it before twelve weeks then we can be sure it wasn't a human being?

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 Message 7 by ringo, posted 07-19-2018 12:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 07-19-2018 12:54 PM Faith has replied
 Message 10 by Taq, posted 07-19-2018 1:14 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 11 of 441 (836587)
07-19-2018 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ringo
07-19-2018 12:54 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
I don't care about the legal definition of murder, I use it because it is the only word that clearly means killing a human being. Most women don't think that's what they are doing when they have an abortion, I didn't, so punishment is not relevant. Yet I had a dream about the child I would have had right after the abortion which showed I knew it unconsciously. And many women become deeply depressed after an abortion, which is another clue. They are deceived by this idea that it is not a living being, just a "piece of tissue" or whatever.
Since you aren't in favor of abortion please don't argue as if you were.

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 Message 9 by ringo, posted 07-19-2018 12:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 07-19-2018 5:42 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 12 of 441 (836588)
07-19-2018 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Taq
07-19-2018 1:14 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Oh come on Taq. The ultrasound shows a living breathing baby, all its parts intact even down to the toes on its feet, its heart beating, even sometimes sucking its thumb, at only twelve weeks in the womb and an inch or two in length. It isn't a shapeless blob, it doesn't look like a fish, it looks like a human baby.

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 Message 10 by Taq, posted 07-19-2018 1:14 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Taq, posted 07-26-2018 5:43 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 14 of 441 (836593)
07-19-2018 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
07-19-2018 5:42 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
If I really care about how women feel I will tell them it is a real baby so they won't kill it and have that on their conscience. And as I already said many women's depression says they know it anyway and suffer for it despite convincing themselves otherwise.
But I am also concerned about God's punishing a nation for such wholesale legal slaughter of the unborn, along with a growing list of other violations of His law.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 07-19-2018 5:42 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 07-19-2018 5:58 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 16 of 441 (836597)
07-19-2018 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by ringo
07-19-2018 5:58 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
the Bible treats human life as beginning at conception, but yes the unborn child doesn't have the legal status of a born human being. However, it IS a human being as you should be able to judge from the untrasound images as I've pointed out, it is not a fish and it is not a blob. And the loss of the unborn child IS treated as a loss to be recompensed, so don't give me this about how abortion is just fine and dandy with the Bible.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 15 by ringo, posted 07-19-2018 5:58 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Percy, posted 07-20-2018 10:20 AM Faith has replied
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 07-20-2018 11:47 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 18 of 441 (836605)
07-20-2018 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Percy
07-20-2018 10:20 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Jer 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Luk 1:41
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
All this attempt to make the unborn child into something unhuman is self-delusion, since you know very well that if it is left to grow and develop it will become a person and if you kill it you are killing a human being. You know that. And again I point out that the ultrasound at twelve weeks shows a living baby with all its parts intact, even sometimes sucking its thumb. To use sophistry to pretend it isn't ought to eat at your conscience.
And the point at which God made Adam a living being says nothing about the point at which we are living human beings in the womb since Adam was never in the womb.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Percy, posted 07-20-2018 10:20 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Percy, posted 07-20-2018 2:50 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 441 (836622)
07-20-2018 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Percy
07-20-2018 2:50 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
It's a living human being and it is self-delusion to deny it.

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 Message 21 by Percy, posted 07-20-2018 2:50 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 07-20-2018 2:54 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 24 by Percy, posted 07-20-2018 3:02 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 07-20-2018 3:05 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 26 of 441 (836643)
07-20-2018 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
07-20-2018 3:05 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
I gave a couple of quotes showing that the Bible recognizes us as persons even in the womb.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 07-20-2018 3:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 28 by Percy, posted 07-20-2018 5:49 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 29 of 441 (836651)
07-20-2018 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Percy
07-20-2018 5:49 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
What ARE you talking about? Nobody says John the Baptist existed before conception and he's the one who leapt in the womb. And Jesus pre-existed conception as God but not as man: he had to be formed in the womb like any other human being. And if God says He knew Jeremiah in the womb then He also knows us in the womb, rather than right after we are born, that certainly shows that we are living human beings before birth. And while twelve weeks isn't conception it's awfully young and awfully tiny and it's clearly a living baby that has all the parts of a baby and acts like a baby.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Percy, posted 07-20-2018 5:49 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Percy, posted 07-21-2018 12:04 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 31 of 441 (836764)
07-22-2018 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Percy
07-21-2018 12:04 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
All that is just sophistry to rationalize killing a developing human being. By your standard it's OK to kill the child minutes before birth because it hasn't yet taken its first breath.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Percy, posted 07-21-2018 12:04 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 33 by Percy, posted 07-23-2018 3:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 35 of 441 (836871)
07-23-2018 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Percy
07-23-2018 3:41 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
We can only have concern for what we know, and that is that a growing embryo will become a fullfledged human being if we don't kill it. We can't be concerned about something at the level of a just-fertilized egg. Yes it is a practical matter. Yes I'm sure they are human life but probably flawed, deformed, would probably be stillborn if they implanted and grew. When a miscarriage occurs after enough time in a wanted pregnancy to anticipate the birth of a baby, then the parents are pretty sad about it. None of this justifies willfully taking its life.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Percy, posted 07-23-2018 3:41 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2018 4:39 PM Faith has replied
 Message 51 by Percy, posted 07-24-2018 9:48 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 37 of 441 (836874)
07-23-2018 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by NoNukes
07-23-2018 4:39 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
I think there may be some problems with contraception from a Christian point of view, but I'm not going to argue about that. I'd rather start where we know we've got a growing baby, where we know we're killing a living human being.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2018 4:39 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 07-23-2018 5:01 PM Faith has replied
 Message 42 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2018 5:26 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 39 of 441 (836876)
07-23-2018 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ringo
07-23-2018 5:01 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
I disagree with that supposed biblical doctrine but killing unborn babies at the rate of fifty million since Roe v Wade, or probably more by now, is not defensible, period.
Again, because we KNOW it's a growing baby.
And I'd have to ask if you are talking about all Christian denominations or perhaps just the liberal ones. NEver mind, I remember you mentioned Baptists.
Before Roe v Wade I'd also doubt it was a prominent enough issue in the minds of Christians to have a clear doctrinal position on it anyway.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 07-23-2018 5:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 07-23-2018 5:25 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 43 of 441 (836884)
07-23-2018 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by NoNukes
07-23-2018 5:26 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
It's a human being from conception. All this hairsplitting sophistry is what is nonsense. I'm not skipping over anything. I'm just saying we are responsible for what we KNOW, not what we don't know. If the fertilized egg doesn't implant then it was a human life that died of natural causes. That was the context, and if we are not aware of any of it we have no responsibility for it or any reaction to it and it's all just a point of sophistry that means nothing. But when we have a known pregnancy we know it's a developing human being. If it dies of natural causes after we know this then the normal reaction is to mourn. We have n o cause at any point to willfully kill it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2018 5:26 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
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