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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 441 (836872)
07-23-2018 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
07-23-2018 4:19 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
We can only have concern for what we know, and that is that a growing embryo will become a fullfledged human being if we don't kill it.
You skipped some steps. You just argued that a growing embryo is a potential human life and then jumped to a conclusion based on not ending a human life.
If I skipped some more steps I could make a case against all contraceptive means including abstinence are unjustified. I would not do that because that would be stupid.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 4:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 4:45 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 48 by Percy, posted 07-24-2018 8:55 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 441 (836880)
07-23-2018 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
07-23-2018 4:45 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
I think there may be some problems with contraception from a Christian point of view, but I'm not going to argue about that. I'd rather start where we know we've got a growing baby, where we know we're killing a living human being.
You are still skipping the steps where the potential human being becomes a human being and pretending not to do that. I know you'd rather start with your conclusion, but that's nonsense.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 4:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 6:26 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 441 (837084)
07-26-2018 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Tangle
07-26-2018 8:42 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
We are quite obviously destroying a potential life which must be a harm, surely?
I am going to assume here you mean destroying a potential human life.
I don't agree that destroying potential life must be a harm. There are certainly some examples where I would agree. But potential life is a term that would extend even to points prior to conception. For example, a device which prevents sperm from contacting an egg interrupts a potential fertilization ending what was potentially life.
Secondly is the question of whether it is desirable to avoid all harms at all costs. I don't believe that to be the case so there is of necessity the requirement to balance. That necessity to balance exists even in cases there is no issue of the mother's death due to the unborn baby.
So I think you are asking the wrong question, or at least not asking all of the needed questions. If you want to define ending a potential human life as harm, you can do so. But even if we grant that, it does not follow that the harm should always be avoided.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Tangle, posted 07-26-2018 8:42 AM Tangle has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 441 (837282)
07-29-2018 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
07-29-2018 6:26 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
We can't legitimately call it anything but a human life simply because we know it will inexorably become a full human being if nothing interferes
But things do intervene, and some of that intervention is non-human. Some of it appears to be spontaneous. And as you have admitted, your argument even applies to contraception. For at least those reasons, I don't believe this line of argument settles anything.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 07-29-2018 6:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 07-29-2018 9:34 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 441 (837293)
07-30-2018 4:37 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
07-29-2018 9:34 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
I'm certainly not going to impose it on unbelievers.
You are not in a position to impose anything on anyone.
t is absurd to use common natural interferences as an excuse to kill the fetus
That was not the argument. The argument is that a fetus is not inevitably going to become a human life. It is further along than an unfertilized egg, yes. But that does not make it human. Only potentially so. Murder applies to humans and not to potential humans.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 07-29-2018 9:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 07-30-2018 11:29 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 441 (837479)
08-02-2018 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Stile
08-02-2018 9:32 AM


Re: For reference: A twelve-weeks ultrasound
When we decide to kill a brain-dead adult - it's never just done "because they're brain dead" more investigation is added.
If brain death is established, nothing else is necessary.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Stile, posted 08-02-2018 9:32 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Stile, posted 08-03-2018 8:10 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 188 of 441 (837492)
08-03-2018 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Stile
08-03-2018 8:10 AM


Re: For reference: A twelve-weeks ultrasound
Do you happen to know the term for the sort of idea I'm describing, then?
Possibly you are referring to a vegetative state. Or possibly one of those situations where the patient has some involuntary functions but some brain damage such that the person cannot do any voluntary motions. I don't know the terminology.
But a brain dead person is considered dead.
That is, if the medical team thinks the person is "still alive" - I don't think the family ever really gets a choice to 'remove life-support' or not, do they?
Yes, they do get that choice. I am the guardian for a family member in that situation.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Stile, posted 08-03-2018 8:10 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 194 of 441 (837519)
08-04-2018 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Tangle
08-04-2018 2:43 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
The only definitive beginning is conception.
That is a beginning, yes. But is it the point a which the fertilized egg is a human being? We kill non-human plants and animals all of the time. We don't consider sterilizing medical instruments a "harm" even if millions of instances single-celled life are ended. We don't consider excising a cancerous tutor to be harm.
Given that, I suggest that your definitive beginning point is just a convenient point to discuss because you don't have any better information. But that is not good enough. It's just a way of deciding the debate in the way you want it decided.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2018 2:43 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2018 5:41 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 441 (837520)
08-04-2018 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Percy
08-04-2018 12:03 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
The majority of the South felt slavery rightfully moral. That does tell us things, but not about how rightfully moral slavery was.
Yikes.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Percy, posted 08-04-2018 12:03 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 201 of 441 (837543)
08-04-2018 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Tangle
08-04-2018 5:41 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
No, it's obviously not a human being, but it *is* a potential human being.
Yes. And that makes a world of difference. The title of this subthread assumes that we are ending a human life. If we accept that for the purpose of argument, then you'd be onto something.
But there is, in fact, a difference between preventing a potential human from being a human, and ending a human life. If there is not, then all contraception is harm using your definition.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2018 5:41 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2018 3:02 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 203 of 441 (837549)
08-05-2018 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Tangle
08-05-2018 3:02 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
A sperm or an egg can not develop into a human being
Not without some additional steps and conditions, no.
Only a fertilised egg has the potential to do that.
Not without some additional steps and conditions, no.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2018 3:02 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2018 3:57 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 209 of 441 (837563)
08-05-2018 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Tangle
08-05-2018 3:57 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
The absent additional steps are critical. Without them there are only two independent cells with no more potential to create a fullgrown human than a skin cell and of no more importance if one is killed
I agree. That is why I noted that both cases require additional steps. Let me detail some of them.
The newly fertilized egg requires the woman's body in order to develop into an embryo which will at some point become a human being. Upon conception, the newly fertilized egg must travel down the Fallopian tubes to reach the uterus, and then attach itself and then draw sustenance in order to continue the development that began at fertilzation.
At no point in the process is the ferttilized egg inevitably going to develop into a human being. It is has the potential to do so, yes. In fact, every sperm ejaculated to begin the path towards an ovum has the potential to begin the process.
Now you can choose to focus only on the potential, but not on any of the ifs. In fact, you do that when you want to make a point, and avoid it in response to my challenges emphasizing lesser probability potentials. But in fact, all of the ifs that intervene prior to a fertilized egg becoming a human life are factors in deciding if what we are doing constitutes harm.
And after deciding that an action is a harm the analysis is not over. Competing harms and benefits must also be analyzed in order to make a complete case. Trying to avoid all possible harms is neither rational nor is it the way society functions.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2018 3:57 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Tangle, posted 08-06-2018 2:42 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 212 of 441 (837575)
08-06-2018 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Tangle
08-06-2018 2:42 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
But on it's own the sperm can not become a baby. It only has a lottery ticket. Only a fertilised egg can become a baby. Conception is the only point in the process where you can say that a baby will be born if all goes perfectly.
Actually, I believe your claims is that it is the earliest point and not the only point. Surely we could point to other indicators that are later than conception. Let's not gloss over what you are actually claiming.
The problem is that preventing potential birth is not harm, and the harm is not unbalanced by other harms, particularly when we are discussing points as early as conception.
And that is exactly my case. I say that the harm involved in preventing the fertised egg developing is on a continuum, from almost negligeable (use of IUD) to murder (killing a foetus an hour before birth).
This analysis is a bit better but surely the scale is not linear. One might say that the harm is negligible up to the point of viability. And negligible harms, or even measurable ones may be balanced by things other than a woman's life.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Tangle, posted 08-06-2018 2:42 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Tangle, posted 08-06-2018 12:45 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 235 of 441 (837623)
08-06-2018 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Tangle
08-06-2018 5:24 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Utter crap. The killing of babies at term is a universally abhorrent idea. You do not actually believe what you are saying.
No, Tangle, it is not. At a minimum, the health of the mother is always a concern, and without knowing the details, we cannot say that on balance that aborting a baby prior to the point where the mother's health is no longer at issue, is universally abhorrent and to be avoided.
And in the US, the law current reflects what I consider to be a proper balancing. After the point at which we know the embryo is viable, we don't allow abortions unless a proper balancing is done.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Tangle, posted 08-06-2018 5:24 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by jar, posted 08-06-2018 7:48 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 239 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 3:01 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 288 of 441 (837722)
08-07-2018 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Faith
08-07-2018 4:15 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Someone I know personally, married to one man for forty years, told me she'd had four abortions because children would interfere with their lifestyle. I had the impression it was more her husband's desire than her own but that wasn't stated. No idea how representative they may be.
I suspect that the answer is that it as representative as are all of your anecdotes.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Faith, posted 08-07-2018 4:15 PM Faith has not replied

  
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