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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 32 of 441 (836769)
07-22-2018 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
07-22-2018 6:12 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Possibly for the first time I find myself agreeing with Faith.
I'm not anti-abortion and I don't call it murder, but we are intentionally ending a life. It's just something we have to live with ourselves over and not try to fool ourselves that it's ok for some semi-arbitrary reason like a 12 week date.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 07-22-2018 6:12 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Percy, posted 07-23-2018 3:41 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 40 of 441 (836877)
07-23-2018 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Percy
07-23-2018 3:41 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Percy writes:
So when does human life begin?
The only point in the process we can name as a definitive start point of human life is conception. At that point we know a full human will emerge if everything goes to plan. The rest is rationalisation.
The details of thinking through these issues change with each attempt, and I never arrive at any definite answer.
I think that's because there is no 'answer', if we're honest, we know we're rationalising to make us feel better about something we know in our guts is a wrong.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Percy, posted 07-23-2018 3:41 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 07-24-2018 9:24 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 60 by Taq, posted 07-26-2018 5:37 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 54 of 441 (836933)
07-24-2018 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Percy
07-24-2018 9:24 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Percy writes:
This doesn't answere the questions I posed concerning this particular point that appear somewhere above the single question you did quote.
It does for me. All the other points you have answered yourself with either a no or a yes and I agree with them. Your remaining question...
A fertilized egg that does implant in the uterus is...what? Human life or not? Does implantation determine when human life begins? That seems an odd criteria. Why should implantation be the determination? Shouldn't it be fertilization? But in that case why the lack of concern about an unimplanted fertilized egg? Is it just a case of practicality because of the difficulty of knowing when there's an umimplanted fertilized egg? But if practicality governs our level of concern for human life at this stage, why not at other stages? Is it the unknowability that justifies our lack of concern about the human life that is an unimplanted fertilized egg? Is it something else? Are we wrong to have no concern for an unimplanted fertilized egg?
..is probably the wrong question.
A better question to my mind is what right do we have to prevent the development of a fertilised egg? One that would, if unimpeded, turn into a baby human. I think that's really, really difficult.
There's a gradient of discomfort with preventing a birth that goes from mildly queasy but only if you think about it - in the use of the coil (IUD) which prevents a fertilised egg from implanting - to unhappy - early stage abortion - to very unhappy - late stage abortion - to outright horror - murder of a new born.
What's common to all, with the possible exception of the IUD, is the gut knowledge that this is a wrong.
It seems to me more like sincere attempts at rationally thinking one's way through complex issues.
Ok, it's a sincere rationalisation.
Here's another question: If I understand your position correctly, you probably consider miscarriage a loss of human life.
Yes, and so does my wife, that's why we planted a tree.
If that's true then why are there no birth or death certificates, same as with abortions?
Certificates are legal constructs designed to help us lead organised lives - they mark definitive legal moments. A birth and a death after birth are definitive. What we're talking about here is morality which is not so clear cut. Even so, it's illegal to perform abortion beyond a defined term and it's illegal for anyone but a qualified doctor to do it. So we know that the law considers it a harm, the gravity of which depends on the circumstances.
Declaring what you believe true is much easier than explaining why what you believe is true.
Sure. That's why we both struggle with it. But I suspect we both know that deliberayely ending a pregnancy is some degree of a moral wrong. It might be justified by some argument or other, but it's still a wrong.
Btw, couldn't post this earlier beacuse of 503s. Just sayin' :-)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 07-24-2018 9:24 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Percy, posted 07-25-2018 9:16 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 56 of 441 (837016)
07-25-2018 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Percy
07-25-2018 9:16 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Percy writes:
Given that my post was almost all questions and almost no answers (my post had 18 question marks and only 8 periods, and none of those 8 concluded an answer) I don't see how that's possible.
It's a bunch of questions. They're all wrong? Whichever ones are wrong, why?
That's a different question, not a better question.
It's because I don't think asking those kind of almost legalistic/technical questions help. I think you have to start thinking about harm and simple rights and wrongs.
An answer might begin by considering the rights of the woman.
Well no, that's not where I'd start, it has to be in considering whether there's a harm here - whether other rights are involved follows that. If no harm then the question of balancing rights doesn't arise.
Now it's my view that it's impossible to conclude that deliberately ending a potential human life is not a harm. The harm may vary according to circumstances but it's a harm nonetheless. I think that's pretty clear too in our legislation and our history of dealing with it.
Rational thinking and a rationalization are not the same thing.
In this case I think it is. I think what we're doing here is rationalising harm then making excuses - often good ones - for what we're doing. I'd don't necessarily think it's a bad thing to do, i just think we should know we're doing it.
If I agreed that ending a pregancy was always "some degree of moral wrong" I would be posting answers instead of questions.
If you didn't think there was a harm here somewhere, I doubt you'd have the questions you have. Am I wrong?
I'm in hell.
So soon? Faith will be pleased.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Percy, posted 07-25-2018 9:16 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Percy, posted 07-26-2018 8:09 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 58 of 441 (837058)
07-26-2018 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Percy
07-26-2018 8:09 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Percy writes:
If I had already reached as many conclusions as you then I wouldn't have so many questions.
Maybe it would help if you clarified something for me. I can't conceive (sorry) of any circumstances where it is not a harm - of whatever level - to have an elective abortion. We are quite obviously destroying a potential life which must be a harm, surely?
Even if it is the case that the baby must die to save the mother, I say that it's still a harm, a justified harm but a harm nonetheless.
It seems to me that society feels the same and although I've not discussed this with many women, those that I know have had an abortion never forget it and always have regrets - though none would go back on the decision.
Do you think otherwise? That there's no harm here?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Percy, posted 07-26-2018 8:09 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by NoNukes, posted 07-26-2018 4:55 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 61 by Taq, posted 07-26-2018 5:39 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 69 by Percy, posted 07-27-2018 2:37 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 96 of 441 (837207)
07-28-2018 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Taq
07-26-2018 5:39 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
100% of people die but we still dislike murder.
It’s not relevant what nature does is it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Taq, posted 07-26-2018 5:39 PM Taq has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 97 of 441 (837208)
07-28-2018 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Percy
07-27-2018 2:37 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Percy writes:
My lack of answers leaves me unarmed for a persu
asive effort.
We can agree that there are no answers- this is not mathematics. It’s life. Given that, what do you feel?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Percy, posted 07-27-2018 2:37 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Percy, posted 07-29-2018 11:08 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 118 by Stile, posted 07-30-2018 9:32 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 107 of 441 (837263)
07-29-2018 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Percy
07-29-2018 11:08 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Percy writes:
I feel like there are a lot of unanswerable questions.
And I think think you’re avoiding thinking about what you might feel about it. We’re human, our feelings on things that are human and do not easily give in to rational analysis like this, are important.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Percy, posted 07-29-2018 11:08 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 07-29-2018 5:33 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 157 by Percy, posted 07-31-2018 3:03 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 116 of 441 (837296)
07-30-2018 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by jar
07-29-2018 5:33 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Jar writes:
But talking about our feelings on such subjects seems pretty much pointless.
We base our entire law on the feelings of ourselves and others. Our moral codes of behaviour are built on feelings. How we feel about others determines how we treat them.
What action feels right is the basis of our entire society.
Regardless of our feelings the reality exists.
Feelings are real.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 07-29-2018 5:33 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 120 of 441 (837301)
07-30-2018 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by jar
07-30-2018 9:38 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Jar writes:
But talking about our feelings on such subjects seems pretty much pointless.
Regardless of our feelings the reality exists.
Morality is the rock our civilisation is built on. Do you think our law is devoid of morality.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by jar, posted 07-30-2018 9:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 07-30-2018 9:51 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 180 of 441 (837447)
08-01-2018 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Percy
07-31-2018 9:31 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:
You and Tangle are both refusing to recognize the uncertainties. You're both declaring that there are definite answers to what at heart are unanswerable questions.
No. Absolutely not. I have said that there are uncertainties and unanswerable questions.
The big issue is how do you deal with that fact that this is life not science or mathematics. You can’t simply say it’s unanswerable, you have to make a decision. How do you decide?
I think you start with your honest feelings and I would label anyone a psychopath that didn’t feel that the deliberate destruction of a human embryo was in some way a harm and something that should be avoided if possible. Can you at least admit that?
When do hills become mountains. When do harbors become seas? When does a fetus become a human being
? What should be clear to everyone, but apparently isn't, is that no one knows the answers to these questions because they don't have answers. What such questions tell us is that not all questions have answers
Wrong again. It is abundantly clear that there are no ‘answers’ but you still need to decide. So how do you do it? What do you feel is right.
I think you are avoiding your feelings. And that you’re avoiding speaking of them.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Percy, posted 07-31-2018 9:31 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Percy, posted 08-01-2018 8:33 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 183 by Stile, posted 08-02-2018 9:45 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 187 of 441 (837491)
08-03-2018 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Percy
08-01-2018 8:33 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:
About the main area of focus much of what you've said has seemed very definite, such as how there must have been a harm, and that I must know there was a harm, and that I'm denying my feelings.
Of course there's a harm! We're deliberately ending a potential human life. How can there not be a harm? If there was no harm we would not be having this conversation, we wouldn't have very strict laws about it and those undergoing abortions would never be troubled by them.
Assuming you mean a decision about having an abortion, however you decide you still won't have an answer to the question of when life begins.
We can't ever know that, we can only point to critical moments in the development cycle and take semi-arbritrary decisions. Meanwhile, we still need to know whether what we are doing is right or wrong or a justifiable wrong.
The question of whether to have an abortion and the question of when life begins are two separate questions.
Sure, but despite that we still need public policy on the issue.
You're falling into Faith-speak, where if we were all honest with ourselves we'd agree with her.
Now you're just avoiding again
Well, I can admit that you've just said something fairly distasteful in calling me a psychopath for not seeing things your way.
And again. I said that I felt that the deliberate destruction of a human embryo was in some way a harm and something that should be avoided if possible.
That seems a very obvious statement to me, what is it that you find you can't agree with and why?
I said some questions have no answers, not that decisions don't sometimes have to be made in the absence of answers.
And I'm asking how those decisions are made.
I think you're failing to see that not everyone is the same. People have feelings, but they're not all the same feelings nor about the same things.
I think in some situations the majority of people feel the same about things and I believe abortion is one of them. Even the supporters - of which I'm one - regard it as a necessary evil. It's not a neutral thing is it?
While feelings might help you make a decision, they won't give you any objective answers.
er, right. But this if human life we're talking about with all its messiness, not, as I say, mathematics and moral decisions are based on feelings. How the majority feel, tends to give us our answers

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Percy, posted 08-01-2018 8:33 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Percy, posted 08-04-2018 12:03 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 189 of 441 (837493)
08-03-2018 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Stile
08-02-2018 9:45 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
stile writes:
If by "some way a harm" you include things along the lines of "the way I feel bad when swatting a mosquito" - then I agree with you.
If by "some way a harm" you intend to imply a level of significance around harming another fully intelligent being - then I don't agree with you.
Well thanks for that, I agree. There is a continuum of harm here with the kind of 'abortion' created by the IUD to the murder of a new born. But it's harm all the way down.
For what it's worth, I agree that this is true and "what you feel is right" is an excellent starting point. But also a terrible idea if you intend no further attempt at investigation to try and improve your chances at getting the "best possible" answer for the scenario. ("Best possible" may very well still be a decision with very negative consequences.)
Fine, but just for the record, I'm obviously not suggesting we stop researching. However, the result of medical science will be a requirement for earlier and earlier abortions as we work out how to keep early foetuses alive at earlier stages.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Stile, posted 08-02-2018 9:45 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 08-03-2018 5:06 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 191 of 441 (837503)
08-04-2018 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by ringo
08-03-2018 5:06 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
ringo writes:
But it's a continuum with a finite beginning, isn't it? The real question is when does it begin to be harm? At birth? In the second trimester? At conception? When the grandmother met the grandfather?
The only definitive beginning is conception. The IUD prevents the fertilised egg implanting so the harm starts there. But few people believe that that harm is significant.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 08-03-2018 5:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by ringo, posted 08-04-2018 11:40 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 194 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2018 12:11 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 196 of 441 (837524)
08-04-2018 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by ringo
08-04-2018 11:40 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
ringo writes:
Exactly. So "harm" is a term that doesn't have much meaning. One woman might think it's "harm" and another woman in the same situation might not think it's harm.
Of course 'harm' has a meaning, it's used in our courts everyday. And it doesn't matter much what an individual thinks or feels about the harm, it's the overall consensus that matters. Just because a psychopath doesn't see harm in murder doesn't mean that there is none.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by ringo, posted 08-04-2018 11:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by ringo, posted 08-04-2018 2:05 PM Tangle has replied

  
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