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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 241 of 441 (837637)
08-07-2018 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by jar
08-07-2018 6:51 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Jar writes:
What we have said is that the decision should not be simply based on a timeline,
But the law that you say you agree with *is* based on a timeline.
that we do not have sufficient information, that we are not the people to make such decisions and that our personal opinions do not matter and are irrelevant.
Well that's jolly useful on a debate forum. The world will just have to get along without your contributions to public health policy.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 6:51 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 8:11 AM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 242 of 441 (837638)
08-07-2018 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Tangle
08-07-2018 7:30 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
LOL
Again, please learn to read. I also did not say I agreed with the law.
What I said was that I do not have, and cannot have sufficient information to have an informed opinion and that I really should not have any opinion on the subject in general.
And the law is not based on a simple timeline but rather on the total sum of information available to the mother, possibly father and the medical staff in that particular instance.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 7:30 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 8:27 AM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 243 of 441 (837641)
08-07-2018 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by jar
08-07-2018 8:11 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Jar writes:
What I said was that I do not have, and cannot have sufficient information to have an informed opinion and that I really should not have any opinion on the subject in general.
So the only opinion you have about a woman deciding to kill her unborn baby 1/10 of a second before it is born is that you have no opinion.
But 1/10 of a second later you do? Or do you not?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 8:11 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 9:05 AM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 244 of 441 (837645)
08-07-2018 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Tangle
08-07-2018 8:27 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:
So the only opinion you have about a woman deciding to kill her unborn baby 1/10 of a second before it is born is that you have no opinion.
But 1/10 of a second later you do? Or do you not?
Yet more utter dishonesty from you it seems.
The topic is abortion, not killing.
Once a child is born it is impossible to abort it.
And yes, as I have said, I have no opinion on the issue and should have no opinion on the issue and no one other than the mother, possibly the father and the medical staff involved in that particular instance should have an opinion.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 8:27 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 9:14 AM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 245 of 441 (837646)
08-07-2018 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by jar
08-07-2018 9:05 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Jar writes:
The topic is abortion, not killing
You think that killing a baby 1/10 of a second before it is born is different from killing a baby 1/10 of a second after?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 9:05 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 9:32 AM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 246 of 441 (837648)
08-07-2018 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Tangle
08-07-2018 9:14 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
The topic is abortion, not killing.
Tangle, why do you insist on repeating your misrepresentations?
AbE: And yet again. Once a child is born it is impossible to abort that child.
And also once again, my opinion is, and should be, irrelevant.
Edited by jar, : see AbE

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 9:14 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 10:01 AM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 247 of 441 (837650)
08-07-2018 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by jar
08-07-2018 9:32 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Jar writes:
The topic is abortion, not killing.
With 1/10 of a second, the topic is killing. I understand why you wish to hide behind semantics but that's all you're doing.
But if you insist, you think it ok to abort a foetus 1/10 second before birth but that it is wrong to kill a baby 1/10 of a second afterwards?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 9:32 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 10:12 AM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 248 of 441 (837651)
08-07-2018 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Tangle
08-07-2018 10:01 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:
But if you insist, you think it ok to abort a foetus 1/10 second before birth but that it is wrong to kill a baby 1/10 of a second afterwards?
Yet more dishonesty from you.
Please learn to read. I try to use little words for you but it doesn't seem to help.
What I have said, and what I continue to say, is that on the subject of abortion my personal opinion is irrelevant and rightly should have absolutely nothing to do with the issue of any abortion; and that decisions related to abortion should be made by the mother, possibly the father and the medical staff involved in that particular instance.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 10:01 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 10:30 AM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 249 of 441 (837654)
08-07-2018 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by jar
08-07-2018 10:12 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Jar writes:
What I have said, and what I continue to say, is that on the subject of abortion my personal opinion is irrelevant and rightly should have absolutely nothing to do with the issue of any abortion; and that decisions related to abortion should be made by the mother, possibly the father and the medical staff involved in that particular instance.
So you feel that its entirely up to the woman if she kills/aborts her baby 1/10 of a second before birth and you feel ok with that?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 10:12 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 10:52 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 250 of 441 (837655)
08-07-2018 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Tangle
08-06-2018 12:45 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
tangle,to jar writes:
So you feel that its entirely up to the woman if she kills/aborts her baby 1/10 of a second before birth and you feel ok with that?
Keep in mind that he mentioned that the decision should be on a case by case basis and should involve the parents(usually) and the medical professionals. Earlier, you said that the decision should be left to the individuals
Tangle writes:
Only up to a semi-arbitrary date.
You mentioned that the medical experts would tell us when such a date would be. Thus is it true that you advocate a definite point beyond which there is no option?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Tangle, posted 08-06-2018 12:45 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 10:58 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 251 of 441 (837656)
08-07-2018 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Tangle
08-07-2018 10:30 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:
So you feel that its entirely up to the woman if she kills/aborts her baby 1/10 of a second before birth and you feel ok with that?
And you continue to misrepresent what I have said. Classic Cult of Ignorance dishonesty from you.
No that is not anything I have said or even implied.
So let me repeat what my position has been yet again and this time, please try to read slowly.
What I have said, and what I continue to say, is that on the subject of abortion my personal opinion is irrelevant and rightly should have absolutely nothing to do with the issue of any abortion; and that decisions related to abortion should be made by the mother, possibly the father and the medical staff involved in that particular instance.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 10:30 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Phat, posted 08-07-2018 10:54 AM jar has not replied
 Message 254 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 11:00 AM jar has replied
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 08-07-2018 11:02 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 252 of 441 (837658)
08-07-2018 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by jar
08-07-2018 10:52 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
I think what Tangle means to suggest is that the medical staff should be bound by some sort of consensual law.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 10:52 AM jar has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 253 of 441 (837659)
08-07-2018 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Phat
08-07-2018 10:40 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Phat writes:
Keep in mind that he mentioned that the decision should be on a case by case basis and should involve the parents(usually) and the medical professionals.
That's all irrelevant Phat. His position is that it's none of his business, the mother can do as she sees fit. So the question becomes why should she be allowed to kill her baby 1/10 second before it is born but not 1/10 of a second after. (Assuming this is purely an elective abortion.).
You mentioned that the medical experts would tell us when such a date would be. Thus is it true that you advocate a definite point beyond which there is no option?
Yes. Though that point will change as medical knowledge changes. Again, assuming a purely elective procedure.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Phat, posted 08-07-2018 10:40 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Stile, posted 08-07-2018 11:14 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 254 of 441 (837661)
08-07-2018 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by jar
08-07-2018 10:52 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Jar writes:
What I have said, and what I continue to say, is that on the subject of abortion my personal opinion is irrelevant and rightly should have absolutely nothing to do with the issue of any abortion; and that decisions related to abortion should be made by the mother, possibly the father and the medical staff involved in that particular instance.
Do you say the same about a mother who kills her child 1/10 of a second after birth. If not why not?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 10:52 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 11:14 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 08-07-2018 11:46 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 255 of 441 (837662)
08-07-2018 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by jar
08-07-2018 10:52 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
What I have said, and what I continue to say, is that on the subject of abortion my personal opinion is irrelevant and rightly should have absolutely nothing to do with the issue of any abortion; and that decisions related to abortion should be made by the mother, possibly the father and the medical staff involved in that particular instance.
So would you argue against there being a law that dictates any decisions?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 10:52 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 11:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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