Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8945 total)
207 online now:
Newest Member: ski zawaski
Upcoming Birthdays: ONESOlivia, perfect
Post Volume: Total: 865,503 Year: 20,539/19,786 Month: 936/2,023 Week: 444/392 Day: 60/74 Hour: 11/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15555
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 457 of 762 (863930)
10-03-2019 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by AZPaul3
10-03-2019 1:29 PM


Re: A molderate point of view on climate change
The “urban heat island” idea was the one Richard Muller was testing - and trying to prove. He found out that global warming was real. As discussed here Climate Change Denier comes in from the cold: SCIENCE!!!

No “moderate” would be arguing that now. It’s been refuted.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by AZPaul3, posted 10-03-2019 1:29 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by Faith, posted 10-03-2019 1:44 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15555
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 460 of 762 (863934)
10-03-2019 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 458 by Faith
10-03-2019 1:44 PM


Re: A molderate point of view on climate change
quote:
This guy Watts mentions Muller. Maybe that's where he got some of his point of view. But he also said that Muller was relying on heat meansurements back when they put thermometers any old where, in the shade, or in the hot sun or anyway where they'd get false readings.

I believe that Muller used to argue that. But as I pointed out he actually investigated it and found out that it didn’t really make a difference. The temperature has been increasing.

And Watts is NOT a moderate. He’s a hard-core denier.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by Faith, posted 10-03-2019 1:44 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by Faith, posted 10-03-2019 2:02 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15555
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 464 of 762 (863939)
10-03-2019 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 462 by Faith
10-03-2019 2:02 PM


Re: A molderate point of view on climate change
quote:
In any case I recognize that there is global warming

And yet here you citing a falsified argument against it, from a hardcore denier as a “moderate” view. That hardly adds up.

quote:
Nevertheless I will fight the recommendations that put the US economy back in the dark ages, and that includes shutting down our oil and coal production,

There are plenty of recommendations that fall well short of that. US coal production is going out of business for economic reasons anyway.

And how do you feel about car manufacturers choosing to produce more efficient and less polluting vehicles ? Would you send the DoJ after them for that ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by Faith, posted 10-03-2019 2:02 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by Faith, posted 10-03-2019 2:21 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15555
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 468 of 762 (863944)
10-03-2019 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Faith
10-03-2019 2:21 PM


Re: A molderate point of view on climate change
He’s still opposing the science, and he is still not a moderate.

And I note that you don’t address the other points I made. Do you really feel that car manufacturers should be discouraged by the government from producing more efficient vehicles ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Faith, posted 10-03-2019 2:21 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by Faith, posted 10-03-2019 2:44 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15555
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 470 of 762 (863948)
10-03-2019 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by Faith
10-03-2019 2:44 PM


Re: A molderate point of view on climate change
quote:
He's not opposing the science, he just thinks there are more issues that aren't being taken into account

Well, there aren’t any of significance. They’ve all been examined.

quote:
I would assume if it's true that the production of more efficient vehicles is being discouraged that there is some reason for that you aren't mentioning.

I am not aware of any good reason why Trump would set the DoJ on a group of car manufacturers agreeing to make more efficient vehicles, nor can I think of any. If you know of one, please inform me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Faith, posted 10-03-2019 2:44 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15555
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 515 of 762 (864217)
10-08-2019 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 514 by Faith
10-08-2019 1:38 AM


Re: Chris Pinto's film on the American Founders
quote:
Pinto's point of view is very controversial to the Christian movement that teaches the Christian underpinnings of America and treats the Founders as Christians, which they weren't. Such as Wallbuilders headed by Barton first name escapes me right now. The film aims to make it very clear that the Founders were NOT Christians, the main ones anyway though there were others who were, and that in fact they repudiated the essence of Christianity. the main ones were Paine, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, and even Washington who went to church with his wife but refused to take communion.

It’s all propaganda. David Barton wants to subvert the Constitution by pretending that the Founders agreed with what he wants.

As for Pinto, there are less famous Founders who are still very important. Alexander Hamilton, for one. Paine isn’t usually counted - for all his importance to the Revolution he didn’t sign the Constitution. By my reading Adams had some deistic ideas but remained Christian. So, Pinto is not exactly looking good here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Faith, posted 10-08-2019 1:38 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 516 by Faith, posted 10-08-2019 8:00 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15555
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 517 of 762 (864226)
10-08-2019 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by Faith
10-08-2019 8:00 AM


Re: Chris Pinto's film on the American Founders
quote:
It's interesting to be watching it again. He started with Paine, went through Jefferson, is now on Franklin. He spends quite a bit of time on Paine, whom he seems to see as the best presenter of the philosophical view of the Enlightenment shared by the others

I guess that spares him the work of dealing with their actual views.

quote:
The film is aimed AGAINST David Barton's point of view, criticizes him sharply for treating the Founders, particularly Jefferson, as Christians.

And I never said otherwise. However, I see them as working for the same goal, the destruction of liberty. Barton’s tactic is subversion, Pinto’s is outright hostility.

quote:
I know people here wouldn't like Pinto's own point of view, but I think he does a good job of presenting the views of the Founders he covers, and I'm not sure which all he will cover. I'm sure he will cover Adams, though, and Adams was a Unitarian, which is not Christian although In Adams' day I think it made more use of the Bible than the other Founders would have done.

I’m sure you think so, although the fact that he uses Paine as a stand-in speaks against it - even if he accurately presents Paine’s views.

quote:
I think this film covers in depth the main five, Paine, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Washington. Perhaps he will mention some others such as Alexander Hamilton.

Again, he’s going on fame rather than importance. None of the writers of the Federalist papers are on that list. And it would be interesting indeed to see how he deals with the views of John Jay (although I bet he avoids that).

quote:
In any case as he presents the views of these men many here should recognize their own philosophical position.

I’m not a Deist, and I certainly don’t trust that Pinto’s presentation of Deism even matches the actual views of any of the Founders. Never mind the anti-Masonic nonsense (not that I’m any sort of fan of the Freemasons, but conspiracy-theory nonsense is conspiracy-theory nonsense, no matter who the target is).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by Faith, posted 10-08-2019 8:00 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 518 by Faith, posted 10-08-2019 4:23 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15555
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 519 of 762 (864235)
10-08-2019 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by Faith
10-08-2019 4:23 PM


Re: Chris Pinto's film on the American Founders
quote:
What? He quotes copiously from the wriings of each of them in turn, mostly letters they wrote I think, opinions we don't usually get to hear. He shows beyond a doubt that they all held strongly anti-Christian opinions, in keeping with the Enlightenment views Paine in particular spelled out in his pamphlet.

Paine is only one Enlightenment writer, and not all were anti-Christian. Locke was not for example.

Even Jefferson admired the teachings attributed to Jesus, and I doubt that you will find anything strongly anti-Christian for Adams or Washington.

quote:
Based on what? Where are you getting this stuff? Pinto presents plenty of evidence of the anti-Christian views of the Founders, which shows how wrong Barton is to claim they are Christian, and he quotes the Bible to show exactly where and how they are against the Bible. He isn't proposing anything himself, all he is doing is revealing the anti-Christian position of the Founders.

I,m getting it from you, when you describe the Constitution asa “betrayal”.

quote:
You completely misunderstood me. I merely meant to say that Paine spells out the Enlightenment philosophy systematically in "Age of Reason" which the opinions of the other Founders generally agree with. But Paine is not being used as a "stand-in" for the Founders at all, just a sort of introduction or overview of the concepts involved.

In other words he’s getting Paine’s views and attributing them to the others. Which means that I didn’t misunderstand at all.

quote:
The film aims to show the beliefs of the five he chose probably because they had the most to do with the actual writing of the documents such as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. where Enlightenment views are shown where some try to find Christian views.

As I pointed out he seems to be picking the famous Founders and NOT considering their importance in writing the Constitution. If he was considering the writing if the Constitution he’d include Hamilton, Madison and Jay.

quote:
He is also specifically aiming to answer those who impute Christian views to these particular men such as David Barton. There were others among the Founders who were true Christians, such as Madison and Jay IIRC. He isn't doing a study of the Founders as such, he's trying to show that these who had great influence in the formation of the government, who are often considered to be Christians, weren't.

If he stopped there then I would be less critical. But when he tries to label the Constitution as anti-Christian there is a real problem.

quote:
You are getting it all so wrong I may have to listen to it all again to give more specific answers, but their Deism isn't the main focus, mostly it's their attacks on the Bible, on the gospel of Jesus Christ, on supernaturalism, in many cases sounding exactly like people here. Some of them also give their own Enlightenment views that put Reason above the Bible. The main gist of the views of most of them seems to be that they like Jesus' moral preaachings but utterly deny His divinity and supernatural doings, and some talk about Him in very disparaging language. This is stuff quoted from their own writings. Pinto doesn't make any comments of his own that don't relate to the actual evidence he is presenting.

It seems that I am getting it right. Paine was a Deist, so was Franklin. Others had Deist tendencies (such as Jefferson).

I would also point out that people who revered Jesus’ teachings are rather unlikely to use disparaging language when discussing him. It seems that you are mixing up different views.

quote:
Good grief, man, nothing is presented that isn't straight from the horse's mouth as it were, historical writings about the Founders' involvement in Masonry, quotes from the Founders themselves, and from people who knew the Founders, news stories, quotes from Masonic literature and from high ranking Masons.

Many of them may have been Freemasons. So what ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by Faith, posted 10-08-2019 4:23 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 520 by Faith, posted 10-08-2019 5:11 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15555
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 522 of 762 (864242)
10-09-2019 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 520 by Faith
10-08-2019 5:11 PM


Re: Chris Pinto's film on the American Founders
quote:
are missing the entire point. Why don't you watch the film? As I said it should hold your interest, it's packed with historical facts.

As I’ve told you before I do not like video for these things. Text is far superior. Especially when fact-checking is required.

quote:
Who cares that Locke wasn't anti-Christian?

You mean who cares that Pinto is mischaracterising the Enlightenment ? I certainly do, and so should you.

quote:
The point Pinto is making is that the Founders he highlights shared Paine's point of view, and that his pamphlet "Common Sense" was extremely influential in the Revolution and the Declaration of Independence and the formation of the new government.

So, what is anti-Christian in Paine’s Common Sense?

The Quotes here don’t seem anti-Christian to me.

quote:
And Pinto quotes from both Jefferson and Adams demonstrating extremely strong anti-Christian opinions from their own writings. Again, they liked Christian morality for the most part, but reject everything about the Person of Christ Himself and the supernatural context of the gospel of salvation.

That does not sound like the Adams I read about. And as I pointed out even though Jefferson objected to organised religion and to the supernatural elements of Christian belief he still had a deep admiration for the teachings attributed to Jesus. I do not believe that either can fairly be described as anti-Christian.

quote:
He also quotes someone about how God was specifically and pointedly thrown out of the Constitution. I guess I'd have to repeat the entire film for you before you're going to accept anything I say about it. Go watch it yourself. It is indeed something that you should find very interesting. It's long but you can take it in short bites. I'm quite sure you would find it very interesting.

Not really. I know that the Constitution is, and was intended to be a secular document. And there is nothing anti-Christian in that. Let me also note that the Revolution required a rejection of the Divine Right of Kings - you may call that anti-Christian if you like - but it does speak to the role of religion in government.

quote:
No he's not attributing Paine's views to the others. He's quoting the others which demonstrates their own sharing of the same views. Pinto's quotes demonstrate very clearly that they were not just nonChristian but anti-Christian, disparaging the Biblical gospel and Jesus Christ Himself. GO WATCH IT, I don't think I could quote enough of it to show you the truth about it. Go see it for yourself.

Your own words tell me that he does attribute Paine’s views to others. That’s the point of setting Paine up as an exemplar, even though the others were not his disciples.

quote:
It isn't a simple matter of their belonging to a sort of club in being Freemasons. There is specific teaching they accepted that turns out to have a lot of influence in their formation of the US government, and in fact teaching that influenced it in many ways beyond the Founders as well. It's basically Enlightenment thinking and it is specifically and pointedly Anti-Christian.

And yet the Constitution is not anti-Christian. Where is this supposed “betrayal”?

quote:
Oh well, you don't want to watch the film, you'd rather make my words about it say what you want to believe about it.

Except I don’t make your words say anything. I see what they do say.

quote:
Oh well. I don't think you could do that with the actual quotes in the film but maybe I underestimate you.

I am sure that Pinto has already done that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 520 by Faith, posted 10-08-2019 5:11 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15555
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 534 of 762 (864268)
10-09-2019 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by Faith
10-09-2019 11:09 AM


Re: Chris Pinto's film on the American Founders
Chris Pinto is still a ”conspiracy nut” and useless at research.

At least that’s what one Christian, Dr Alan E Kurschner, says.

And perhaps you might like to consider this reviewof Tares Among the Wheat by another Christian, Fred Butler.

I haven’t checked the details, and I don’t endorse either man in general, but they certainly seem more reliable than Chris Pinto.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 11:09 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 536 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-09-2019 1:46 PM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 538 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 3:08 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15555
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 539 of 762 (864277)
10-09-2019 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 538 by Faith
10-09-2019 3:08 PM


Re: Chris Pinto's film on the American Founders
quote:
I'd have to see Tares Among the Wheat again to be reminded of what it's about but just reading the first part of your link suggests it's about the Bible manuscripts controversies, and the writer labels Pinto a KJV conspiracy nut. Well, he's not.

He’s certainly a conspiracy nut. And choosing “experts” because they take a KJV-only view strikes me as showing a very obvious bias.

quote:
I start from the fraud perpetrated on the Church by Westcott and Hort.

Yes, I know you love making false accusations. It’s a common feature of conspiracy nuts.

quote:
Pinto examines the supposedly ancient Bible manuscripts that W and H used against the rules they were to follow in their updating of the KJV.

By which you mean promoting a nutty conspiracy story based on cherry-picked evidence,. And why should we think that his other work is any better. I note that you haven’t bothered to supply the alleged “anti-Christian” quotes from Washington or Adams.

quote:
Of course this blogger is just another one of those who have been duped by W&H, who perpetrated a really scurrilous hoax on the Church which is still dominating the Bibles used by mos

You’ve made the accusation before. You’ve never backed it up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 538 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 3:08 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 540 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 3:38 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15555
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 541 of 762 (864285)
10-09-2019 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Faith
10-09-2019 3:38 PM


Re: Chris Pinto's film on the American Founders
quote:
You have a lot of opinions for someone who knows absolutely nothing about this

I know more than you think.

quote:
I did a lot of work to come to my conclusions

But honest investigation wasn’t any part of it. Looking for vile slanders more likely, because you love those, as we’ve seen again and again.

quote:
So did Pinto.

So you think that Pinto knows that what he is saying is ridiculously slanted and deceptive.

quote:
I explicity reject the KJV-only people because they have the silly idea that there's something divine about the KJV. No, it just happens to be the only trustworthy translation after W&H did their dirty work. Burgon is not KJV-only.

And let us note that you still offer nothing to substantiate your accusations. But you do indicate that calling you a “KJV-only conspiracy nut” is not far from the truth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 3:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 542 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 4:17 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15555
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 543 of 762 (864288)
10-09-2019 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 542 by Faith
10-09-2019 4:17 PM


Re: One of Chris Pinto's films on the Bible Controversy
quote:
Evidence in such a case isn't just a matter of a quote here and there, you really have to get into the history of the situation

Indeed, that is one of Chris Pinto’s failings, as I have been pointing out.

As usual you fail to understand the point of the question. It is not that I believe that these quotes will prove Chris Pinto’s claims. It is that I flatly do not believe that there are genuine quotes from either man that show a hatred of Christianity. And if Pinto’s quotes are false or misattributed or misinterpreted that would be strong evidence if his unreliability.

quote:
Meanwhile perhaps this will suffice.

You expect me to trust Chris Pinto ? No. Try a reliable source.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 4:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 7:55 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15555
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 546 of 762 (864302)
10-10-2019 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 544 by Faith
10-09-2019 7:55 PM


Re: One of Chris Pinto's films on the Bible Controversy
The Blog entry itself is all quotes from Burgon, but are almost all opinion - and therefore of little value. Argument from authority has been discussed here before and a good argument from authority relies on consensus of the relevant experts. That consensus is against Burgon, so no there is nothing of interest there. Indeed nothing that substantiates your argument at all.

I hardly think that I should have to wade through a forest of links in the hope of finding something relevant. I did take a look at the page by Daniel Wallace (who is generally a good scholar although biased by conservative views) and it is far, far better. At least it explains the issues rather than making attacks with little explanation!

Your reply, on the other hand, is the usual nastiness without any real support for your claims.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 7:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by Faith, posted 10-10-2019 1:50 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15555
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 548 of 762 (864304)
10-10-2019 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 545 by Faith
10-09-2019 8:52 PM


Re: Francis Bacon and The New Atlantis
Bacon’s New Atlantis describes a fictional island, Bensalem, (which is not the fictional Atlantis of Plato - which followed Plato’s philosophy).

Aside from possessing advanced scientific knowledge Bensalem was not a world power, nor does the US Constitution follow the model of Bensalem.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 8:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by Faith, posted 10-10-2019 1:03 AM PaulK has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019