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Author Topic:   Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?
Theodoric
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Posts: 6654
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 526 of 691 (864248)
10-09-2019 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 524 by Thugpreacha
10-09-2019 8:48 AM


Re: Chris Pinto's film on the American Founders
I believe that the US was maintained through the morals of a largely Christian population who were not overly greedy or materialistic until after WWII, when we fell off the rails.

Again you insert your preaching in a place where it is not on topic. Your comment has nothing to do with the current conversation. We know your beliefs, you do not have to spout them willy nilly. Do you have anything to contribute to the actual conversation going on?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


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Faith
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Posts: 33255
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 527 of 691 (864254)
10-09-2019 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 523 by Aussie
10-09-2019 8:20 AM


Re: Chris Pinto's film on the American Founders
Right. The Founders betrayed those principles, except to the extent that they did like what they considered to be Christian morality, so that's there. But although it can't be said that the founding documents were Christian except in that limited sense perhaps, certainly the population was thoroughly Christian and that had a continuing influence.

AbE: This film is the last in a series of three I think, maybe four, on the subject of the founding of America. I started on the first one last night, The New Atlantis. It's interesting that Pinto hadn't yet developed his view of the Founders as anti-Christian, so he has interviews with people affirming that they were, but since the topic is the occultic elements in the founding of America they see it as a mixture of both Christian and occultic inspiration.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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jar
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Posts: 31455
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 528 of 691 (864255)
10-09-2019 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 527 by Faith
10-09-2019 11:09 AM


What is "Christian morality"?
Faith writes:

The Founders betrayed those principles, except to the extent that they did like what they considered to be Christian morality, so that's there.

There's that old canard again that there is some "Christian" morality.

What morality is uniquely "Christian" Faith?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Faith
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Posts: 33255
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 529 of 691 (864256)
10-09-2019 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 528 by jar
10-09-2019 11:15 AM


Re: What is "Christian morality"?
Ask the Founders, it's their idea.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by jar, posted 10-09-2019 11:15 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31455
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 530 of 691 (864257)
10-09-2019 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 529 by Faith
10-09-2019 11:16 AM


Re: What is "Christian morality"?
Faith writes:

Ask the Founders, it's their idea.

Sorry Faith but so far no one has ever offered any evidence to support such a silly position. If there is such a thing as "Christian" morality then there should be some evidence to show it exists.

So again, what is "Christian" morality Faith.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 33255
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 531 of 691 (864258)
10-09-2019 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 530 by jar
10-09-2019 11:18 AM


Re: What is "Christian morality"?
I suppose there is evidence of what the Founders meant in various of their writings, but Pinto doesn't spend any time defining it. I'd point to the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount myself but as I say it wasn't discussed.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31455
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 532 of 691 (864265)
10-09-2019 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 531 by Faith
10-09-2019 11:20 AM


Re: What is "Christian morality"?
Well, the Ten Commandments are certainly NOT Christian and there is nothing uniquely "Christian" related to morality in the Sermon on the Mount.

So again Faith, "What is 'Christian' morality"?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Thugpreacha
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Posts: 12961
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 533 of 691 (864267)
10-09-2019 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 525 by jar
10-09-2019 8:51 AM


Re: What are "Christian morals"?
None, really. Dawkins expounds on this in his book, The God Delusion where he says
quote:
since Jewish and Christian interpretations of the Bible have changed over the span of history so that what was formerly seen as permissible is now seen as impermissible, it is intellectually dishonest for them to believe theism provides an absolute moral foundation apart from secular intuition.

This idea of secular intuition has been discussed by us here at EvC before, notably by you when you said that the Tree Of The Knowledge of Good & Evil provided humanity with a great gift---which in essence would be secular intuition. Thus, you basically took that to imply that God essentially "saved everybody" through that gift universal to humanity---believer or not. This gets us back to your argument regarding Christianity as being responsible for what one does versus what one could do in any given situation...the inner conscience being present in all individuals.

Biblical Christianity calls it Original Sin, which you see as merely a clever marketing ploy. And you will ask me what the evidence shows. Regarding America and Americans a hundred years ago versus today, I see where we have gotten better in some ways and worse in other ways.

We would argue that God is with everybody (thus secular intuition) yet In those who accept His Spirit...His living essence which we commune with and pray to. Critics would then ask us why we are such nasty judgemental people if we in fact have this heightened awareness of God.

Which is a good point.

Wiki writes:

The well-known passage from Dostoyevsky's The Brothers Karamazov, "If God is dead, all is permitted,"[1]:63 suggests that non-believers would not hold moral lives without the possibility of punishment by a God. Greg M. Epstein notes a similar theme in reverse. Famous apologies by Christians who have "sinned" (such as Bill Clinton and Jimmy Swaggart) "must embolden some who take enormous risks for the thrill of a little immoral behavior: their Lord will forgive them, if they only ask nicely enough when—or if—they are eventually caught. If you're going to do something naughty, you're going to do it, and all the theology in the world isn't going to stop you."[1]:115–116 Some survey and sociological literature suggests that theists do no better than their secular counterparts in the percentage adhering to widely held moral standards (e.g., lying, theft and sexual infidelity).[e]

Does that answer your question?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by jar, posted 10-09-2019 8:51 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 534 of 691 (864268)
10-09-2019 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by Faith
10-09-2019 11:09 AM


Re: Chris Pinto's film on the American Founders
Chris Pinto is still a ”conspiracy nut” and useless at research.

At least that’s what one Christian, Dr Alan E Kurschner, says.

And perhaps you might like to consider this reviewof Tares Among the Wheat by another Christian, Fred Butler.

I haven’t checked the details, and I don’t endorse either man in general, but they certainly seem more reliable than Chris Pinto.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


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 Message 527 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 11:09 AM Faith has responded

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12961
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 535 of 691 (864269)
10-09-2019 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 530 by jar
10-09-2019 11:18 AM


Re: What is "Christian morality"?
jar writes:

If there is such a thing as "Christian" morality then there should be some evidence to show it exists.

And yet there is no more evidence for Christian morality than there is for the Holy Spirit. Which is no problem for me...I believe what I believe based on the experiences which I have had..yet will admit that what I believe is irrational and certainly not objectively provable. In a way, I think that it was all meant to be this way.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 530 by jar, posted 10-09-2019 11:18 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12961
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 536 of 691 (864270)
10-09-2019 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 534 by PaulK
10-09-2019 1:27 PM


Re: Chris Pinto's film on the American Founders
Here is a better link. Tares Among the Wheat – A Review Your assessment seems accurate, but I will review Faiths video before having any final conclusion on the matter. It has been my experience that the wiser Christians---even if they personally believe that Jesus is returning soon---don't use this belief in their scholarly approaches to current articles. After all, no one knows the day or the hour. Perhaps God is waiting on us...thats what I personally believe.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 534 by PaulK, posted 10-09-2019 1:27 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31455
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 537 of 691 (864272)
10-09-2019 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 533 by Thugpreacha
10-09-2019 1:25 PM


Re: What are "Christian morals"?
If you had stopped at "None, really." it would have been a good answer.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 533 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-09-2019 1:25 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33255
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 538 of 691 (864273)
10-09-2019 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 534 by PaulK
10-09-2019 1:27 PM


Re: Chris Pinto's film on the American Founders
I'd have to see iTares Among the Wheat again to be reminded of what it's about, but just reading the first part of your link suggests it's about the Bible manuscripts controversies, and the writer labels Pinto a KJV conspiracy nut, which identifies the writer as one of the Bible dupes. Well, Pinto is not a KJV conspiracy nut, he musters the evidence and he does so over more than one film on the subject. I have a blog on the same subject and I'm not either. Neither of us starts from KJV. I start from the fraud perpetrated on the Church by Westcott and Hort and I rely mostly on Dean John William Burgon who thoroughly debunked their fraud in three long scholarly articles, titled "The Revision Revised.". Pinto starts by tracking the sources of the supposedly ancient Bible manuscripts that W and H used against the rules they were to follow in their updating of the KJV. Of course this blogger is just another one of those who have been duped by W&H, who perpetrated a really scurrilous hoax on the Church which is still dominating the Bibles used by most. I've discussed this before here.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 539 of 691 (864277)
10-09-2019 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 538 by Faith
10-09-2019 3:08 PM


Re: Chris Pinto's film on the American Founders
quote:
I'd have to see Tares Among the Wheat again to be reminded of what it's about but just reading the first part of your link suggests it's about the Bible manuscripts controversies, and the writer labels Pinto a KJV conspiracy nut. Well, he's not.

He’s certainly a conspiracy nut. And choosing “experts” because they take a KJV-only view strikes me as showing a very obvious bias.

quote:
I start from the fraud perpetrated on the Church by Westcott and Hort.

Yes, I know you love making false accusations. It’s a common feature of conspiracy nuts.

quote:
Pinto examines the supposedly ancient Bible manuscripts that W and H used against the rules they were to follow in their updating of the KJV.

By which you mean promoting a nutty conspiracy story based on cherry-picked evidence,. And why should we think that his other work is any better. I note that you haven’t bothered to supply the alleged “anti-Christian” quotes from Washington or Adams.

quote:
Of course this blogger is just another one of those who have been duped by W&H, who perpetrated a really scurrilous hoax on the Church which is still dominating the Bibles used by mos

You’ve made the accusation before. You’ve never backed it up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 538 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 3:08 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 540 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 3:38 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33255
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 540 of 691 (864282)
10-09-2019 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 539 by PaulK
10-09-2019 3:22 PM


Re: Chris Pinto's film on the American Founders
You have a lot of opinions for someone who knows absolutely nothing about this. I did a lot of work to come to my conclusions. So did Pinto. I explicity reject the KJV-only people because they have the silly idea that there's something divine about the KJV. No, it just happens to be the only trustworthy translation after W&H did their dirty work. Burgon is not KJV-only.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 539 by PaulK, posted 10-09-2019 3:22 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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