Re: There is nothing in Protestantism to compare to the RCC Inquisition
The factor of religion played a really big part in the creation of the different colonies.
New England was pretty much dominated by the Protestant fanatics like the Pilgrims.
New York was originally dominated by Dutch and German Huguenots but later by primarily commercial English.
Pennsylvania was a refuge for Quakers, Mennonites, Amish and Anabaptist but extended religious freedom to all Monotheists.
Maryland was created as a sanctuary for Roman Catholics.
Virginia was open to all religions, not just Monotheists, but was predominately Methodist and Presbyterian.
North Carolina and South Carolina were primarily secular commercial creations.
Georgia was created as a Prison Colony.
The salient fact was that when it came time to create a new Nation from the separate colonies it was obvious that Christianity specifically and Religion Generally needed to be kept out of government.
Re: There is nothing in Protestantism to compare to the RCC Inquisition
Faith writes:
As I've said very clearly there was no Protestant genocide or ethnic cleansing.
So you say but why then were the Native Religions banned, the Native languages banned, Native children forced to dress like Europeans, Native Languages banned, the peoples lands taken and whole populations forced to move?
Faith, in reality as opposed fantasy that is genocide and ethnic cleansing and was done by Protestant and Roman Catholics alike.
Re: There is nothing in Protestantism to compare to the RCC Inquisition
I'm sorry, cultural or religious clashes are not at all the same thing as an official religious agency intended for the punishment, torture and murder of heretics.
Let’s see. What about the alleged anti-Christian quotes attribute to Adams and Washington ? Does Pinto produce the actual writings of either man to substantiate his accusation ? If so identify the writings.
You can hear about Adams' writings in the film between 1:17 and 1:20, which I'm reposting below.
The Treaty of Tripoli is introduced around 1:21, and between there and 1:22+ Pinto points out that nobody in the Senate objected to it, that it was unanimously passed.
From 1:22:44 a sermon given in 1931 by a Dr. Bird Wilson is quoted, about how the Founders had been mostly "infidels" and that God had been specifically and intentionally "voted out" of the Constitution. Wilson's source was the Proceedings as reported by the Secretary of the Senate, Thompson, which says the question was debated and it was decided to leave God out.
From 1:24:39, the source of the information that it was Washington who drafted Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli is given as "nineteenth century historian, Moncure D. Conway."
From 1:26 the film discusses Washington specifically. Washington himself wrote nothing on the subject of his religious beliefs, and avoided attempts to get him to state his beliefs. Many are quoted in this section saying he never said anything to suggest he held Christian beliefs. I've already mentioned what was said about him by pastors and others, about his refusing Communion and being a Deist. This is covered in the first couple minutes, and the sermon by Dr. Bird Wilson is given as the source. Wilson personally knew some of the pastors he quotes. Around 1:35 Jefferson's diary is quoted about how some Christian leaders had tried to get Washing to make a clear statement of belief in the Christian faith and how "that old fox" completely avoided doing so.
Re: There is nothing in Protestantism to compare to the RCC Inquisition
Faith writes:
I'm sorry, cultural or religious clashes are not at all the same thing as an official religious agency intended for the punishment, torture and murder of heretics.
Yet the fact is that in the Americas both Roman Catholics and Protestants forced Native American to adopt Christianity. They were seen as savages and heretics and were killed, tortured, confined, deported and had their language, dress, customs, diet, beliefs, sacred places and territories all desecrated and taken away from them.
Claiming "Billy did it" only works before kindergarten.
Re: There is nothing in Protestantism to compare to the RCC Inquisition
So what? That has nothing to do with the topic of the specific persecution of heretics by an official religious body. Apples and oranges. Cultural conflict.
Re: There is nothing in Protestantism to compare to the RCC Inquisition
Faith writes:
So what? That has nothing to do with the topic of the specific persecution of heretics by an official religious body. Apples and oranges. Cultural conflict.
But that is NOT the topic Faith and has been answered several times in this thread.
The FACT is that Protestants in the Americas are as guilty of genocide and ethnic cleansing as the Roman Catholics.
The "Billy said to do it" defense also doesn't work once kids get to Kindergarten.
Re: The Sources for Adams and Washington's beliefs
Pinto identifies Adams as a Unitarian. However Adams only became a Unitarian in retirement Wikipedia
Check the dates on the quotes Pinto provides. They are all from 1813 or later.. How can they be trusted to convey the views Adams possessed more than 20 years earlier ?
Pinto puts forward the Treaty of Tripoli as evidence that the US was not intended to be a theocratic state but no more. Your assertions that it promoted syncretism are your invention, not Pinto’s. (And you owe him an apology for suggesting that he told such an obvious lie)
I do not find the idea that Christians would protest Article 11 of the Treaty at all convincing. Aside from the fact that Christianity does not require theocracy, the main point of the Article is that there would be no religious conflict. Why would people who wanted peace object to that ?
As for Moncure, he does not seem to have been a historian. The text referred to dates from 1901. Moncure does not explicitly claim that Washington wrote Article 11 - he claims that the text of Article 11 is the opening of the Treaty. Which is obviously untrue since Articles 1-10 must precede it. More, so far as I can tell - based on the page number and contents of the book - it seems that the text came from an article arguing that exhibitions should be permitted to open on Sunday(!). I wonder why Pinto doesn’t mention that?
As I have already argued that Washington was - at the least - not an orthodox Christian I don’t care about that. I care only about the assertion that his own statements prove that he was opposed to Christianity.
Re: The Sources for Adams and Washington's beliefs
So do you have any evidence that Adams professed orthodox Christian beliefs during the founding years?
There is only one statement by Washington himself that suggests his opposition to Christian belief and that was something he wrote to Lafayette about how he indulges the Christians in their beliefs but is "no bigot" himself. That's somewhere toward the end of the Washington section. 1:37 or so?
Re: The Sources for Adams and Washington's beliefs
quote:So do you have any evidence that Adams professed orthodox Christian beliefs during the founding years?
Do you have any evidence of Adams expressing any hostility to Christianity while - or before - the Constitution was being thrashed out. I’ll give you up to the ratification of the Bill of Rights (1791)
quote:There is only one statement by Washington himself that suggests his opposition to Christian belief and that was something he wrote to Lafayette about how he indulges the Christians in their beliefs but is "no bigot" himself. That's somewhere toward the end of the Washington section. 1:37 or so?
That’s hardly anti-Christian as it stands.
Indeed, if you look at the actual quote he says that he indulges the Christians because he is no bigot to any mode of worship. I.e. he is NOT prejudiced against Christian preachers. Your phrasing is a misrepresentation.
Edited by PaulK, : Added final paragraph after viewing video.
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