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Author Topic:   Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 691 of 762 (864622)
10-13-2019 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 690 by jar
10-13-2019 4:44 PM


Re: on trust
I suppose you have a point. But don't we continually critically evaluate God..and belief in general...for over ten years at this forum? I guess all I am doing is challenging the idea that man defines God...(even though the evidence shows that we do)

I affirm that I believe that God created us long before we imagined Him. Despite no evidence.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 690 by jar, posted 10-13-2019 4:44 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17519
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 692 of 762 (864651)
10-14-2019 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 689 by Thugpreacha
10-13-2019 4:37 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Why do you scoff at evidence in the context of God?


It is not objective.

How can you know whether it's objective or not if you reject the idea of evidence out of hand? How do you know there can not be objective evidence of God?

Phat writes:

Do you think that it has to be evident for everyone or is this even realistic?


Why wouldn't it be?

Phat writes:

After all, even the Bible says that many are called and few are chosen.


Have you even read that story?
quote:
Matthew 22:22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


The evidence was very evident (and so was the king's childish response).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 689 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-13-2019 4:37 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 693 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-14-2019 12:29 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 693 of 762 (864652)
10-14-2019 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 692 by ringo
10-14-2019 11:49 AM


Re: For Better Or Worse
How do you know there can not be objective evidence of God?
Because if that were so, everyone would believe..or more correctly know that God exists. And they don't.

In addition, I believe that I already know God, and am testing the God I know versus the God that you describe (knowable through objective evidence).

Perhaps I shy away from your idea of what evidence this would be and what conclusion it would lead to. God is not a relative concept. Everyone may well have an idea of who what and how God is, but I believe there is only one final answer.

Im assuming that the God I claim to know is the right one. If not, this conversation will deteriorate quickly.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 692 by ringo, posted 10-14-2019 11:49 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 694 by ringo, posted 10-14-2019 12:33 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17519
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 694 of 762 (864654)
10-14-2019 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 693 by Thugpreacha
10-14-2019 12:29 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

How do you know there can not be objective evidence of God?


Because if that were so, everyone would believe..or more correctly know that God exists. And they don't.

That doesn't answer the question. We agree that there isn't any evidence of God but the proper conclusion is that there is no God, not that there is a top secret God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 693 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-14-2019 12:29 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 695 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-14-2019 12:36 PM ringo has responded
 Message 697 by RAZD, posted 10-14-2019 12:44 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 695 of 762 (864655)
10-14-2019 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 694 by ringo
10-14-2019 12:33 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
There is no consensus on what a proper response would be. I happen to believe based on experience rather than evidence. Unlike some, I don't simply dismiss the belief based on lack of objective evidence.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by ringo, posted 10-14-2019 12:33 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 696 by ringo, posted 10-14-2019 12:42 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17519
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 696 of 762 (864657)
10-14-2019 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 695 by Thugpreacha
10-14-2019 12:36 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
Phat writes:

Unlike some, I don't simply dismiss the belief based on lack of objective evidence.


Do you dismiss leprechauns based on lack of objective evidence? Or Zeus? Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Or six-foot rabbits? Or unicorns? Or Quetzalcoatl? Or hobbits?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 695 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-14-2019 12:36 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 705 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-14-2019 7:14 PM ringo has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20239
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 697 of 762 (864658)
10-14-2019 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 694 by ringo
10-14-2019 12:33 PM


sorry, not quite
We agree that there isn't any evidence of God but the proper conclusion is that there is no known evidence of God,

Fixed it.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by ringo, posted 10-14-2019 12:33 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 698 by jar, posted 10-14-2019 12:49 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 699 by ringo, posted 10-14-2019 12:56 PM RAZD has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31611
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 698 of 762 (864659)
10-14-2019 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 697 by RAZD
10-14-2019 12:44 PM


Re: sorry, not quite
RAZD writes:

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Only sometimes. The absence of holes in the target is evidence the target was not hit.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by RAZD, posted 10-14-2019 12:44 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 700 by RAZD, posted 10-14-2019 1:14 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17519
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 699 of 762 (864661)
10-14-2019 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 697 by RAZD
10-14-2019 12:44 PM


Re: sorry, not quite
I disagree. Your "correction" is circular: Absence of evidence is evidence of absence of evidence. Not very useful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by RAZD, posted 10-14-2019 12:44 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 701 by RAZD, posted 10-14-2019 1:23 PM ringo has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20239
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 700 of 762 (864663)
10-14-2019 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 698 by jar
10-14-2019 12:49 PM


Re: sorry, not quite
... The absence of holes in the target is evidence the target was not hit.

But not that bullets/arrows/etc do not exist or were fired at the target.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by jar, posted 10-14-2019 12:49 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 704 by jar, posted 10-14-2019 2:48 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20239
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 701 of 762 (864665)
10-14-2019 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 699 by ringo
10-14-2019 12:56 PM


Re: sorry, not quite
... Your "correction" is circular: ...

Nope. Tautological maybe but not circular. The absence of evidence for "X" does not mean "X" does not exist, just that evidence for it has not been found/discovered (yet).

... Not very useful.

Curiously, I find it more useful to be clear on the logic rather than skip a step. That's why I added "known" to the syllogism.

You can probably think of a few things that used to be unevidenced but that are now known.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 699 by ringo, posted 10-14-2019 12:56 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 702 by ringo, posted 10-14-2019 1:27 PM RAZD has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17519
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 702 of 762 (864666)
10-14-2019 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 701 by RAZD
10-14-2019 1:23 PM


Re: sorry, not quite
RAZD writes:

That's why I added "known" to the syllogism.


"Known" is redundant. Known evidence is indistinguishable from evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 701 by RAZD, posted 10-14-2019 1:23 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 703 by RAZD, posted 10-14-2019 2:47 PM ringo has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20239
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 703 of 762 (864674)
10-14-2019 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 702 by ringo
10-14-2019 1:27 PM


Re: sorry, not quite
so evidence that has not yet been discovered is known?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 702 by ringo, posted 10-14-2019 1:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 709 by ringo, posted 10-15-2019 11:34 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31611
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 704 of 762 (864675)
10-14-2019 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 700 by RAZD
10-14-2019 1:14 PM


Re: sorry, not quite
But if the claim was that the target was hit it is evidence that the target was not hit.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 700 by RAZD, posted 10-14-2019 1:14 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 708 by RAZD, posted 10-15-2019 8:05 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1576
Joined: 12-22-2015


(1)
Message 705 of 762 (864681)
10-14-2019 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 696 by ringo
10-14-2019 12:42 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
quote:
Do you dismiss leprechauns based on lack of objective evidence? Or Zeus? Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Or six-foot rabbits? Or unicorns? Or Quetzalcoatl? Or hobbits?

Consider the "general human awareness" issue in the stories.

Did the Greek Mythological stories say that Zeus & the Titans were observed to walk on Earth by the larger population?

Were the Sons of God in Genesis 6 unknown by the world?

Should we be aware of these "Fallen Angels" and their offspring (not just "in those days" but "after") or will they simply be laughed at as fiction?

(The "New Testament" has "faith" as a major issue, so I suppose that throws out the apparently visible (?) human/gods/titans interface issues among the old myths, and replaces it with issues of blind belief in whatever stories on must hold dear & vital to "the faith" among "the faithful")


This message is a reply to:
 Message 696 by ringo, posted 10-14-2019 12:42 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 706 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-14-2019 11:33 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded
 Message 710 by ringo, posted 10-15-2019 11:43 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
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