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Author Topic:   Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 706 of 762 (864688)
10-14-2019 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 705 by LamarkNewAge
10-14-2019 7:14 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
I agree. This is also a line of reasoning I would use. Critics call it an Appeal To Popularity but screw the critics.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 705 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-14-2019 7:14 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 707 by jar, posted 10-15-2019 7:26 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31646
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 707 of 762 (864699)
10-15-2019 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 706 by Thugpreacha
10-14-2019 11:33 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
Phat writes:

This is also a line of reasoning I would use. Critics call it an Appeal To Popularity but screw the critics.

Okay, let's use it.

About one third of the religious people in the world are Christians; two thirds of the world's religions people are not.

The vast majority of Christians are Roman Catholic.

By popularity Christianity loses.

By popularity Protestantism loses.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 706 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-14-2019 11:33 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 711 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-15-2019 3:35 PM jar has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20258
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 708 of 762 (864700)
10-15-2019 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 704 by jar
10-14-2019 2:48 PM


Re: sorry, not quite
But if the claim was that the target was hit it is evidence that the target was not hit.

Then I'd guess that saying "absence of evidence is evidence of the absence of evidence" and not saying that the target was hit, would be a good thing.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 704 by jar, posted 10-14-2019 2:48 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 709 of 762 (864708)
10-15-2019 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 703 by RAZD
10-14-2019 2:47 PM


Re: sorry, not quite
RAZD writes:

so evidence that has not yet been discovered is known?


If it is not known, it is not evidence.

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 Message 703 by RAZD, posted 10-14-2019 2:47 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 710 of 762 (864709)
10-15-2019 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 705 by LamarkNewAge
10-14-2019 7:14 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
LamarkNewAge writes:

Did the Greek Mythological stories say that Zeus & the Titans were observed to walk on Earth by the larger population?


As far as I know, they were visible and even tangible, to the point of fathering children.

LamarkNewAge writes:

Were the Sons of God in Genesis 6 unknown by the world?


There's no reason to think they were unknown.

LamarkNewAge writes:

Should we be aware of these "Fallen Angels" and their offspring (not just "in those days" but "after") or will they simply be laughed at as fiction?


If there is evidence of their existence, we should be aware of them. Otherwise, we can laugh at them as fiction.

LamarkNewAge writes:

The "New Testament" has "faith" as a major issue...


Does it? Or has that doctrine been superimposed on it?

LamarkNewAge writes:

...so I suppose that throws out the apparently visible....


I'll point out what I keep telling Phat: In John 20, Jesus offered concrete evidence to the disciples and than He offered the same evidence to Thomas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 705 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-14-2019 7:14 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 714 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-17-2019 12:57 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 711 of 762 (864718)
10-15-2019 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 707 by jar
10-15-2019 7:26 AM


Re: For Better Or Worse
jar writes:

By popularity Christianity loses.

By popularity, Protestantism loses.

OK, finish your analogy. Who *wins*?

I might point out that Christianity has always been a religion that focuses on the few rather than the many. Judaism was and is the same way. The majority of people will reject the message. My point, if I can defend it, was that it appeared that among those who had a conversion experience, most were Christians. You guys might ask to see proof or otherwise dismantle that argument so I stand on the sidelines watching...

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 707 by jar, posted 10-15-2019 7:26 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 712 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2019 3:55 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 713 by jar, posted 10-15-2019 5:02 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7129
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 712 of 762 (864719)
10-15-2019 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 711 by Thugpreacha
10-15-2019 3:35 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
Phat writes:

I might point out that Christianity has always been a religion that focuses on the few rather than the many.

Right, heaven is an exclusive club, sssshh, don't spread the good word...stop those missionaries, cancel the leaflets

My point, if I can defend it, was that it appeared that among those who had a conversion experience, most were Christians.

That's a point?

You guys might ask to see proof or otherwise dismantle that argument so I stand on the sidelines watching...

Oh come Phat, you know it's bollox, why are you wasting our time?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 711 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-15-2019 3:35 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31646
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 713 of 762 (864725)
10-15-2019 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 711 by Thugpreacha
10-15-2019 3:35 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
Phat writes:

The majority of people will reject the message.

What message?

Phat writes:

My point, if I can defend it, was that it appeared that among those who had a conversion experience, most were Christians.

Really Phat. You have evidence that more people that have a conversion experience choose Christianity than Islam or Taoism or Hinduism or Buddhism or ...?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 711 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-15-2019 3:35 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 716 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-17-2019 4:16 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1576
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 714 of 762 (864808)
10-17-2019 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 710 by ringo
10-15-2019 11:43 AM


Re: For Better Or Worse
I said:

quote:
The "New Testament" has "faith" as a major issue...

Ringo asked:

quote:
Does it? Or has that doctrine been superimposed on it?

I will avoid parsing the New Testament (which did not exist during the first century, and only came to be FOR EUROPEAN CHRISTIANS in the period roughly from 140-180, while Aramaic speaking Christians were not about to begin to drink the cool-aid until a bit later) into its separate parts.

I will just say that Jesus definitely did not teach the "faith" that churches teach everywhere.

He did teach the mustard seed thingy though, but it is a monstrous imposition for a 21st century preacher to read today's "faith" doctrines into whatever Jesus was (briefly) talking about.

quote:
I'll point out what I keep telling Phat: In John 20, Jesus offered concrete evidence to the disciples and than He offered the same evidence to Thomas.

As a whole, the Gospel of John is hardly a reliable witness to much Jesus said or did, though parts could be "somewhat" historical.

But your point is well taken.


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 Message 710 by ringo, posted 10-15-2019 11:43 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 715 of 762 (864846)
10-17-2019 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 714 by LamarkNewAge
10-17-2019 12:57 AM


Re: For Better Or Worse
I'm assuming, for the sake of argument, that you label yourself more of a descendant of Aramaic Christians. That whole Zoroaster thing. Comments?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 714 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-17-2019 12:57 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 717 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-17-2019 11:11 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 716 of 762 (864847)
10-17-2019 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 713 by jar
10-15-2019 5:02 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
jar writes:

What message?

Good point.

You may argue that the message is that we are charged to do what Jesus said. Feed the hungry. Clothe and shelter the homeless. Encourage the destitute. Which I will agree is part of the message. Apologists may say that the message is that while we were still sinners, Jesus died for us. You will argue that the story should focus on Jesus' life rather than his death, burial, and resurrection. So I agree...which specific message?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 713 by jar, posted 10-15-2019 5:02 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1576
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 717 of 762 (864888)
10-17-2019 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 715 by Thugpreacha
10-17-2019 4:13 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
quote:
I'm assuming, for the sake of argument, that you label yourself more of a descendant of Aramaic Christians. That whole Zoroaster thing. Comments?

I have trouble convincing people that things have changed a lot since the days of the founders (of the various religions).

I don't really know what exactly Zoroaster actually taught.

It seems he actually did have a problem with animal sacrifices (due to the suffering), so that it all I can say for sure.

I kinda like him, whoever he actually was.

I don't assume that too many of his followers really "know him", though.

(Overall, they might "get him" better in India than Iran, ironically, but that might have more to do with Hindu and, perhaps, Theosophical, influences)

(Today's Aramaic Christians simply follow the European religion, BUT what a treasure trove it would be to find some actual cache of documents from before 180. It would shake the earth.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 715 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-17-2019 4:13 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 718 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-27-2019 1:16 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 718 of 762 (865563)
10-27-2019 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 717 by LamarkNewAge
10-17-2019 11:11 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
BUT what a treasure trove it would be to find some actual cache of documents from before 180. It would shake the earth.
What do you suspect that we would find? How would it change the consensus of Western Christianity?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 717 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-17-2019 11:11 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 719 by ringo, posted 10-27-2019 2:13 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 719 of 762 (865565)
10-27-2019 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 718 by Thugpreacha
10-27-2019 1:16 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
Phat writes:

How would it change the consensus of Western Christianity?


There is no consensus of Western Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 718 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-27-2019 1:16 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 720 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-27-2019 4:34 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 720 of 762 (865574)
10-27-2019 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 719 by ringo
10-27-2019 2:13 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
If so, then finding the original documents would likely have no effect.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 719 by ringo, posted 10-27-2019 2:13 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
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