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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 1486 of 1677 (847219)
01-19-2019 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1485 by Thugpreacha
01-19-2019 12:48 PM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
Hi Phat,

I wasn't going to comment, but...

The chipmunk voices sounded as if they came from an echo chamber,

That's exactly how it sounds when someone speaks in multiple voices. High pitched, echoing and as if coming from elsewhere. It's an old-as-the-hills stage trick. Check it out, there are plenty of videos of the phenomenon.

Mutate and Survive

Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.


On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1485 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-19-2019 12:48 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1498 by Faith, posted 01-19-2019 6:00 PM Granny Magda has responded

    
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 1536 of 1677 (847337)
01-21-2019 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1498 by Faith
01-19-2019 6:00 PM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
Hi Faith, hope you are well.

What a coincidence then, since there was obviously no stage trick that Phat experienced.

This may seem obvious to you, despite your not having been there, but it is far from obvious to me.

I also heard a chipmunky voice once, commenting on my belief in Jesus Christ, but it didn't have an echoing quality. It sounded like it came from the air a few feet from me.

The echoing quality seems to be a feature of the "dual voice" effect. What you describe there is something else entirely. It sounds indistinguishable from simple voice-throwing.

Another time I heard a deeper voice that did echo, like it was inside a steel drum.

The "voice from inside a box" trick is yet another well-worn ventriloquist's trick.

Or perhaps you heard these voices whilst alone, you don't say. If that is the case...

I'm sure nobody else would have heard these voices, that I was hearing them with a spiritual faculty and not my physical ears,

I'm tempted to agree, sort of.

Mutate and Survive


On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1498 by Faith, posted 01-19-2019 6:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1550 by Faith, posted 01-21-2019 3:02 PM Granny Magda has responded

    
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


(1)
Message 1575 of 1677 (847445)
01-22-2019 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1550 by Faith
01-21-2019 3:02 PM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
Based on what? A bunch of young guys coming back late from a church gathering staging this thing? For whom? Phat's report shows no such nonsense.

It only takes one person to throw a voice. One young person, looking for attention, that's all that's required here. I don't expect you to agree, but surely you can appreciate that from my perspective that sounds much more believable than literal demons. I don't find Phat's anecdote particularly compelling.

I was alone in my apartment at night. Who would be throwing the voice?

No-one. If you were alone, we can safely rule out ventriloquism in your example.

I'm guessing that the voices wouldn't have been audible to anyone else, but I have no way of knowing.

I'm guessing that too.

Mutate and Survive


On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1550 by Faith, posted 01-21-2019 3:02 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1576 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-23-2019 3:26 AM Granny Magda has responded
 Message 1577 by Theodoric, posted 01-23-2019 9:09 AM Granny Magda has responded

    
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 1581 of 1677 (847494)
01-23-2019 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1576 by Thugpreacha
01-23-2019 3:26 AM


Re: Demons and delusions
I cant expect anyone to accept anything.

Well okay.

I can see how it might have been convincing as a first-hand experience. I'm glad that you can appreciate how unconvincing it sounds as an anecdote.

It was unexplained.

It's likely to remain that way, especially if you reject the most parsimonious explanation.

Just know that Ive verified that nobody tricked me.

How? Like this?

Phat writes:

They did not trick me...I can read a person whom I know and determine that.

That is, with all the respect in the world, complete rubbish. You are not fallible. You can be tricked. If you serioulys believe otherwise you are being both naive and hubristic.

You don't seem to have worked very hard to investigate the possibility that you were tricked. You spoke of the multiple voice thing as though it were clearly impossible, when in actual fact, a quick google would have revealed that it is absolutely possible. Ask yourself; are you an expert on ventriloquism? Do you know the first thing about what vent's can and cannot do? Did you even try to find out?

You also seem to dismiss out of hand the possibility that your friend was mentally ill and half believed it himself, even as he faked it. It is far from unusual for crazy people to manufacture another layer of fake craziness over their genuine crazy. I've seen that sort of behaviour in person. It's worth remembering that crazy people do not necessarily have rational motivations.

I dont really want demons to be real any more than anyone else does. But reality often shows us things we don't want.

Whilst I accept that you don't specifically want demons to be real, I would take issue with that statement somewhat.

There is a sense in which you do want demons to be real. You need for them to be real since if you conclude that they are bogus, you are forced to conclude that Christianity got that wrong. You are then forced to consider the possibility that Christianity might be wrong in many other respects too. You are forced to contemplate the possibility that the Bible - and specifically the Jesus narrative - is false. After all, if there are no demons, then Jesus can't have exorcised the demon Legion from those pigs can he? In my limited experience, this sort of thinking is something that many theists are understandably reluctant to consider.

You may not want demons to be real but I would respectfully suggest that you want the alternative possibility - that there is no supernatural and that the whole thing is made-up - even less.

Mutate and Survive


On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1576 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-23-2019 3:26 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1583 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-23-2019 2:27 PM Granny Magda has responded

    
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 1582 of 1677 (847500)
01-23-2019 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1577 by Theodoric
01-23-2019 9:09 AM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
Hi Theo,

I heartily agree in recommending the works of Oliver Sacks. He was, without doubt, one of the most eloquent people ever to write about science. His books are fascinating and hugely readable without ever dumbing down.

I was especially impressed with A Leg to Stand On, Sacks' account of his own broken leg. Really all that happens is that Sacks breaks his leg whilst hiking, goes to hospital and briefly suffers from Alien Limb Syndrome, the conviction that his leg was somehow not his own... then he gets better... the end. That's kinda thin. Not many people could string that out into a decent book. Sacks made it into a great book. that takes real talent.

Mutate and Survive


On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1577 by Theodoric, posted 01-23-2019 9:09 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 1585 of 1677 (847513)
01-23-2019 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1579 by Faith
01-23-2019 1:54 PM


I completely understand being skeptical of the idea of demons but the facts as Phat has described them, and I as well, aren't just dismissable by the kinds of answers we've been getting

I disagree. In particular, I would say that your anecdote is so incredibly banal that it is scarcely worth mentioning.

You heard a voice. Once. Even you admit that another person would likely not have heard it.

You experienced a fleeting audio hallucination or simply misheard an actual noise. Either event is utterly commonplace and boring.

There is nothing here to take seriously.

Did he lie about the blood red eyes?

No-one is accusing Phat of lying. I think we all know him better than that.

I am suggesting that there are more plausible explanations for his experience than demons.

And besides; since when are red eyes so inexplicable? Did I miss a meeting?

Can multiple voices really be "thrown" by a single voice?

Yes. Have you actually made any attempt to answer that question by the way, or do you only intend it as rhetoric? Google is your friend...

Would some kid coming back from a youth group meeting just happen to be able to throw his voice like that,

How am I supposed to know? I don't know him.

and the other kid just happen to pretend to be demon possessed and make his eyes look red?

Hold on, why do you presume which kid was making the voice? It could have been either or both for all you know. You were not there any more than I was.

That's the whole problem with this kind of anecdote. Phat may not have observed all of the salient details. Or he may have forgooten important bits in the interim. We have no way of knowing what the full circumstances were.

And never break the act?

And admit to lying?

And was Phat lying about the feeling of electricity in the air before he even went down to where the other boys were?

Jeez, why do you have reach straight for the "lying" bit? I never even implied that Phat was lying. Sheesh...

Anyway, that sounds like a standard adrenaline response to a shocking and frightening stimulus. No big whoop.

All told, I just don't see much to be impressed with here.

Mutate and Survive

Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.


On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1579 by Faith, posted 01-23-2019 1:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1587 by Faith, posted 01-23-2019 2:45 PM Granny Magda has not yet responded

    
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 1596 of 1677 (847552)
01-23-2019 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1583 by Thugpreacha
01-23-2019 2:27 PM


Re: Demons and delusions
Bloody hell Phat... words fail me. There aren't enough facepalm memes on the internet to adequately respond to that.

I know these people well. There are certain keys to human nature that can be discerned.

Yes, of course there are. But to imagine that you can do so flawlessly is asinine.

If a close friend or friends attempts to "trick" you, they likely will let you in on the fact that you have been tricked eventually

Likely is not certainly. You can still be fooled. If you believe otherwise, then you are an even bigger fool.

People who have been married for decades are commonly astonished to discover that their spouse has been cheating on them. People have been known to hide entire secret lives from those closest to them. The cuckolded husband is fooled, the wife whose husband is secretly gay is fooled, the victims of confidence tricks are fooled, but you... you are somehow immune. You are infallible. You cannot be tricked.

What a crock. I call that breathtaking naivety and implicit arrogance.

I know that this is not coming across as friendly and I am sorry for that, but seriously, there is no nice way to say this. Stop being a fool. You can be tricked just as anyone else can, including by those close to you.

There would be no motive for them to essentially lie about something that to this day we all can recall to this day.

Again, crazy people do not need motives.

Anyway, you're wrong. Just being centre of attention is plenty of motive. It's a foolish motive sure, but who said that all human motives are sensible?

Mike has never lied to me about anything

You are wrong. Everyone lies.

nor is he even the type to have a sneaky ventriloquist "friend" to trick me and then keep quiet about it for 13 years.

Who was doing the voice? Mikee? The other person present? How do you know?

Perhsaps you would ask that they take a polygraph test.

A waste of time. Polygraphs are easy to fool and they cannot work on someone who is disturbed enough to believe in what he is saying. In particular, after thirteen years it would be doubly a waste; the testee would only verify what they could remember and that might be quite different from what actually happened.

Have you ever had someone whom you knew well inside and out attempt to trick you and then lie for 13 years? If so, I can see your argument.

Unpack that for a second; if they had successfully fooled me, how would I know?

But yes, I have had people lie to me, including people close to me. And so have you. Everyone has. This ought not be surprising to a grown-up.

Mutate and Survive


On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1583 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-23-2019 2:27 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1597 by Faith, posted 01-23-2019 4:08 PM Granny Magda has responded

    
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 1598 of 1677 (847562)
01-23-2019 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1597 by Faith
01-23-2019 4:08 PM


Re: Demons and delusions
How could you possibly know what they would have wanted? You've never met them.

Perhaps "they" were too embarrassed at having put on such a ridiculous spectacle. Perhaps only one of them was indulging in trickery and to gloat would have been to admit the deception. Perhaps they felt guilty about lying about something as personal and heartfelt as religious faith. Perhaps mental illness was involved and there never was any fully conscious deception. Perhaps their memories were tainted. Perhaps, perhaps... I could go on, but no, obviously none of that could possibly be as plausible as literal magic demon monsters from hell. I mean, it just stands to reason.

Mutate and Survive


On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1597 by Faith, posted 01-23-2019 4:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
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