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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1591 of 1677 (847530)
01-23-2019 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1589 by ringo
01-23-2019 3:21 PM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
ringo writes:

What bugs me is when somebody acknowledges that something is unexplained - and then they explain it.

For a believer, explaining the possibility of demons is not treason. For an unbeliever, it is expected.

What bugs me is when someone explains to me why my conclusions are fictional and goes on to correct me based on their understanding of reality vs fantasy. I would tell them that they are free to think as they like but not to act as if their intelligence is superior to mine. They may suggest that I am willfully deluded, which I'll take as an opinion but not a fact....for now.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1589 by ringo, posted 01-23-2019 3:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1592 by ringo, posted 01-23-2019 3:30 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1592 of 1677 (847532)
01-23-2019 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1591 by Phat
01-23-2019 3:26 PM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
Phat writes:

For a believer, explaining the possibility of demons is not treason.


For everybody, it's a contradiction of the word "unexplained".

Phat writes:

What bugs me is when someone explains to me why my conclusions are fictional and goes on to correct me based on their understanding of reality vs fantasy.


There is only one reality.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1591 by Phat, posted 01-23-2019 3:26 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1593 by Phat, posted 01-23-2019 3:31 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1593 of 1677 (847533)
01-23-2019 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1592 by ringo
01-23-2019 3:30 PM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
There is only one reality.
. Agreed. And none of us is an expert on it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1592 by ringo, posted 01-23-2019 3:30 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1595 by ringo, posted 01-23-2019 3:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 1594 of 1677 (847535)
01-23-2019 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1590 by Phat
01-23-2019 3:22 PM


Re: The Church vs Critical Thinking
I don't doubt that you are being honest, but I really do think that your position is enough opposed to the traditional Christian doctrines that if your church is strong on those doctrines they have to oppose you and even by excommunication if you continue as you are. The traditional church subscribes to a set of doctrines and you dispute some of them, you persist in refusing to take a position one way or the other. Again, I don't know how strong your church's position is on the traditional doctrines, but if they do hold to a strong position then you don't belong there.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1590 by Phat, posted 01-23-2019 3:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1595 of 1677 (847537)
01-23-2019 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1593 by Phat
01-23-2019 3:31 PM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

There is only one reality.


. Agreed. And none of us is an expert on it.

Collectively, we are as expert as anybody can be. You don't get to challenge objective reality just because you don't like it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1593 by Phat, posted 01-23-2019 3:31 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 1596 of 1677 (847552)
01-23-2019 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1583 by Phat
01-23-2019 2:27 PM


Re: Demons and delusions
Bloody hell Phat... words fail me. There aren't enough facepalm memes on the internet to adequately respond to that.

I know these people well. There are certain keys to human nature that can be discerned.

Yes, of course there are. But to imagine that you can do so flawlessly is asinine.

If a close friend or friends attempts to "trick" you, they likely will let you in on the fact that you have been tricked eventually

Likely is not certainly. You can still be fooled. If you believe otherwise, then you are an even bigger fool.

People who have been married for decades are commonly astonished to discover that their spouse has been cheating on them. People have been known to hide entire secret lives from those closest to them. The cuckolded husband is fooled, the wife whose husband is secretly gay is fooled, the victims of confidence tricks are fooled, but you... you are somehow immune. You are infallible. You cannot be tricked.

What a crock. I call that breathtaking naivety and implicit arrogance.

I know that this is not coming across as friendly and I am sorry for that, but seriously, there is no nice way to say this. Stop being a fool. You can be tricked just as anyone else can, including by those close to you.

There would be no motive for them to essentially lie about something that to this day we all can recall to this day.

Again, crazy people do not need motives.

Anyway, you're wrong. Just being centre of attention is plenty of motive. It's a foolish motive sure, but who said that all human motives are sensible?

Mike has never lied to me about anything

You are wrong. Everyone lies.

nor is he even the type to have a sneaky ventriloquist "friend" to trick me and then keep quiet about it for 13 years.

Who was doing the voice? Mikee? The other person present? How do you know?

Perhsaps you would ask that they take a polygraph test.

A waste of time. Polygraphs are easy to fool and they cannot work on someone who is disturbed enough to believe in what he is saying. In particular, after thirteen years it would be doubly a waste; the testee would only verify what they could remember and that might be quite different from what actually happened.

Have you ever had someone whom you knew well inside and out attempt to trick you and then lie for 13 years? If so, I can see your argument.

Unpack that for a second; if they had successfully fooled me, how would I know?

But yes, I have had people lie to me, including people close to me. And so have you. Everyone has. This ought not be surprising to a grown-up.

Mutate and Survive


On two occasions I have been asked, "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1583 by Phat, posted 01-23-2019 2:27 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1597 by Faith, posted 01-23-2019 4:08 PM Granny Magda has responded

    
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 1597 of 1677 (847556)
01-23-2019 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1596 by Granny Magda
01-23-2019 3:55 PM


Re: Demons and delusions
The point is that they wouldn't have wanted to lie, they'd have been gloating over fooling him.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1596 by Granny Magda, posted 01-23-2019 3:55 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1598 by Granny Magda, posted 01-23-2019 4:52 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1599 by AZPaul3, posted 01-24-2019 3:38 PM Faith has responded

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 1598 of 1677 (847562)
01-23-2019 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1597 by Faith
01-23-2019 4:08 PM


Re: Demons and delusions
How could you possibly know what they would have wanted? You've never met them.

Perhaps "they" were too embarrassed at having put on such a ridiculous spectacle. Perhaps only one of them was indulging in trickery and to gloat would have been to admit the deception. Perhaps they felt guilty about lying about something as personal and heartfelt as religious faith. Perhaps mental illness was involved and there never was any fully conscious deception. Perhaps their memories were tainted. Perhaps, perhaps... I could go on, but no, obviously none of that could possibly be as plausible as literal magic demon monsters from hell. I mean, it just stands to reason.

Mutate and Survive


On two occasions I have been asked, "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1597 by Faith, posted 01-23-2019 4:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3764
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 1599 of 1677 (847645)
01-24-2019 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1597 by Faith
01-23-2019 4:08 PM


Re: Demons and delusions
There is another scenario that could be proposed. Though dealing with impetuous youth we must remember these youth were imbedded in a strong religious cult. We already know how twisted in logic religious minds can get.

The one perpetrator of this hoax, seeing his friends’ acceptance and deepening faith, is convinced, well after his show, that his subterfuge was a theater put on by god. He might reason god wanted, indeed, induced him into the hoax using his youthful impulses, and that to admit to such might undermine the fabric of faith in his friends and, thus, the will of god. All these years later, though he knows he was never possessed by any demon, he may be ever convinced that he had been possessed by a rather mischievous musing of the holy spirit and feels compelled to hold his secret.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1597 by Faith, posted 01-23-2019 4:08 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1600 by Phat, posted 01-24-2019 5:05 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 1601 by Faith, posted 01-24-2019 9:32 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1600 of 1677 (847648)
01-24-2019 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1599 by AZPaul3
01-24-2019 3:38 PM


Re: Demons and delusions
All of these "perhaps'es" are arguably valid. I dont think they happened but I could be wrong. The supernatural realm remains unevidenced. One thing I might note, however...and that is your description of this particular church as a strong religious cult. If that is your criteria, likely 30% of protestant churches fall under your cult definition.

There are many nuttier groups than the one I was in....but they did go through a particularly exclusivist and "nutty" phase. I've got stories...


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1599 by AZPaul3, posted 01-24-2019 3:38 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1603 by AZPaul3, posted 01-24-2019 11:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1605 by ringo, posted 01-25-2019 10:57 AM Phat has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 1601 of 1677 (847658)
01-24-2019 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1599 by AZPaul3
01-24-2019 3:38 PM


Re: Demons and delusions
Totally out of character for any Christian to want to keep a friend believing in a lie. If it had been a hoax my own scenario makes most sense, that the perps would gleefully tease their victim who had believed it. But of course I don't believe any of that anyway. It was a demon-possessed young man Phat saw.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1599 by AZPaul3, posted 01-24-2019 3:38 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1602 by Theodoric, posted 01-24-2019 9:51 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1604 by AZPaul3, posted 01-24-2019 11:37 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5929
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 1602 of 1677 (847662)
01-24-2019 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1601 by Faith
01-24-2019 9:32 PM


Re: Demons and delusions
Lol. Whatever.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1601 by Faith, posted 01-24-2019 9:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3764
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 1603 of 1677 (847668)
01-24-2019 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1600 by Phat
01-24-2019 5:05 PM


Re: Demons and delusions
If that is your criteria, likely 30% of protestant churches fall under your cult definition.

Phat, com'on. You know that's 100%.

It's cults all the way down.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1600 by Phat, posted 01-24-2019 5:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3764
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 1604 of 1677 (847669)
01-24-2019 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1601 by Faith
01-24-2019 9:32 PM


Re: Demons and delusions
It was a demon-possessed young man Phat saw.

Yes. Of course it was, M'Love. How foolish of me. What was I thinking!

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1601 by Faith, posted 01-24-2019 9:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 1605 of 1677 (847687)
01-25-2019 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1600 by Phat
01-24-2019 5:05 PM


Re: Demons and delusions
Phat writes:

One thing I might note, however...and that is your description of this particular church as a strong religious cult. If that is your criteria, likely 30% of protestant churches fall under your cult definition.


If by "cult" we mean "mind-control cult", then fundamentalist Christian churches fit the description very well. Encouraging you to accept church dogma without evidence (or despite evidence) is attempted mind-control. Blaming things on demons is attempted mind-control.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1600 by Phat, posted 01-24-2019 5:05 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1606 by Phat, posted 01-25-2019 6:44 PM ringo has responded

  
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