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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1606 of 1677 (847730)
01-25-2019 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1605 by ringo
01-25-2019 10:57 AM


Re: Demons and delusions
ringo writes:

Encouraging you to accept church dogma without evidence (or despite evidence) is attempted mind-control.

Much of religion is based on tradition and belief. Strictly speaking, there is no evidence that can be objectively replicable. You know this. Why do you keep insisting that churches become scientists rather than believers? Besides, much of the evidence is controversial. The empty tomb arguments surrounding Jesus, for example. There is no clear nor concise explanation. Only different cases for or against.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1605 by ringo, posted 01-25-2019 10:57 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1607 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2019 4:18 AM Phat has responded
 Message 1619 by ringo, posted 01-26-2019 10:46 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6618
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1607 of 1677 (847746)
01-26-2019 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1606 by Phat
01-25-2019 6:44 PM


Re: Demons and delusions
Phat writes:

There is no clear nor concise explanation.

An explanation is only necessary when it's been demonstrated that someone called Jesus was executed and put in there dead and that the story of the empty tomb is true.

We do not have to provide an explanation of why leprechauns don't wear green coats.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1606 by Phat, posted 01-25-2019 6:44 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1608 by Phat, posted 01-26-2019 4:23 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 1609 by Phat, posted 01-26-2019 4:25 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 1614 by Phat, posted 01-26-2019 6:05 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1608 of 1677 (847747)
01-26-2019 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1607 by Tangle
01-26-2019 4:18 AM


Re: Demons and delusions
And you are fully responsible for your belief. Using the excuse of lack of evidence wont get you off the hook.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1607 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2019 4:18 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1610 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2019 4:58 AM Phat has responded
 Message 1611 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2019 5:11 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1609 of 1677 (847748)
01-26-2019 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1607 by Tangle
01-26-2019 4:18 AM


Re: Demons and delusions
And you are fully responsible for your belief. Using the excuse of lack of evidence wont get you off the hook.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1607 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2019 4:18 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6618
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1610 of 1677 (847749)
01-26-2019 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1608 by Phat
01-26-2019 4:23 AM


Re: Demons and delusions
Phat writes:

And you are fully responsible for your belief.

I don't have a belief.

Using the excuse of lack of evidence wont get you off the hook.

What hook?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1608 by Phat, posted 01-26-2019 4:23 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1613 by Phat, posted 01-26-2019 5:59 AM Tangle has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14720
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1611 of 1677 (847750)
01-26-2019 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1608 by Phat
01-26-2019 4:23 AM


Re: Demons and delusions
quote:

And you are fully responsible for your belief. Using the excuse of lack of evidence wont get you off the hook.

That’s a weird thing to say. Are you saying that there is some moral duty to be credulous ? And that a rational skepticism is just an excuse to evade that duty ?

There are good reasons to doubt the Empty Tomb story. It may well be a complete fiction. And the story is the only evidence we have of those supposed events. There is nothing worthy of blame in accepting that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1608 by Phat, posted 01-26-2019 4:23 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1612 by Phat, posted 01-26-2019 5:55 AM PaulK has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1612 of 1677 (847751)
01-26-2019 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1611 by PaulK
01-26-2019 5:11 AM


Re: Demons and delusions
PaulK writes:

Are you saying that there is some moral duty to be credulous?

No. I'm saying that there is no reason to resist believing. It's a bit of Occam's Razor. IF God desired that we take a leap of Faith, what harm is there in so doing? At worst it is a harmless belief. At best it shows allowance of trust. Nobody is saying that one should trust religion or any religious human or institution. All I am saying is that it is allowing oneself to be open to an omnipotent Creator who would hypothetically have the power to make you believe anyway. It's making the first move.
There are good reasons to doubt the Empty Tomb story. It may well be complete fiction.
There are good reasons to question everything written. There are no good reasons to doubt that trusting God...even hypothetically...is somehow harmful. I look at purposeful unbelief as a way of holding on to ones trust in their own ability and in human potential asd an expression of faith in oneself at the expense of denying God...even if one sees Him as a hypothetical and irrational belief. It is allowing yourself to believe in and trust ultimate good expressed through a character apart from ourselves.
And the story is the only evidence we have of those supposed events.
Scripture states that signs and wonders follow those who believe. The evidence will never manifest before the belief is professed.
There is nothing worthy of blame in accepting that.
Perhaps not. But what harm can it do? Why a reluctance to go out on a limb? Why a reluctance to take a leap of faith? (even if it can be reasoned as being irrational)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1611 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2019 5:11 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1615 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2019 6:44 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1620 by ringo, posted 01-26-2019 10:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1613 of 1677 (847752)
01-26-2019 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1610 by Tangle
01-26-2019 4:58 AM


Re: Demons and delusions
I don't have a belief.

You don't have evidence either. If you can honestly live with that no matter what reality turns out to become, you have done all that you can do. What I am saying is that you can't use evidence or lack of evidence to excuse your free choice not to have belief.
What hook?
The one that caught that tasty fat fish you are frying.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1610 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2019 4:58 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1616 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2019 9:30 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1614 of 1677 (847753)
01-26-2019 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1607 by Tangle
01-26-2019 4:18 AM


Re: Demons and delusions
An explanation is only necessary when it's been demonstrated that someone called Jesus was executed and put in there dead and that the story of the empty tomb is true.

We do not have to provide an explanation of why leprechauns don't wear green coats.

leprechauns never mess with our social order. They can wear whatever coat they want. Artists usually portray them as green. By the same token, Jesus can be any color we imagine. His character, however, is undeniable, based on the writings...which are all we have ever had, even according to you.

We can dismiss Him as fiction, but we cant deny the character described.

Leprechauns are not so concise nor absolute.

Once I encountered the writing of a character named tangle, even if I could hypothetically imagine him as fictional, I cannot redefine the character as impressed upon my mind and heart through the writing which I read off of the internet.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1607 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2019 4:18 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1617 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2019 9:41 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14720
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 1615 of 1677 (847754)
01-26-2019 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1612 by Phat
01-26-2019 5:55 AM


Re: Demons and delusions
quote:

No. I'm saying that there is no reason to resist believing.

By which you mean that there is no reason not to be credulous?

quote:

IF God desired that we take a leap of Faith, what harm is there in so doing? At worst it is a harmless belief. At best it shows allowance of trust.

Credulity is not just a belief, though, and it isn’t always harmless. There is fraud, there are conspiracy theorists - and belief in conspiracy theories was a big factor in the persecution of Jews - up to and including the Holocaust. Trust can be misplaced, you know.

Then again, how can we know that God wants us to make leaps of faith rather than make our best efforts to find the truth ? Wouldn’t deciding that in itself take a leap of faith ?

And even if we accept that God wants us to make leaps of faith, there is a big difference between making any leap of faith and making particular leaps of faith. Which is it God wants ? And if it is only particular leaps of faith how do we tell the right ones from the wrong ones ?

quote:

Nobody is saying that one should trust religion or any religious human or institution. All I am saying is that it is allowing oneself to be open to an omnipotent Creator who would hypothetically have the power to make you believe anyway. It's making the first move.

Believing the Empty Tomb story would come under trusting religion - the only sources that mention it were written to promote a particular religion.

quote:

There are good reasons to question everything written.

But there are degrees. The Empty Tomb story is less trustworthy than many things that are written.

quote:

There are no good reasons to doubt that trusting God...even hypothetically...is somehow harmful.

Which is very, very different from trusting the Empty Tomb story. (And then again I have to ask what “trusting God” really means - I’m not so sure that it is always harmless.)

quote:

Scripture states that signs and wonders follow those who believe. The evidence will never manifest before the belief is professed.

Signs and wonders could be perceived by non-believers.
As for the latter the way I’ve always heard it, if you don’t find evidence it’s because you didn’t believe enough. It really, really looks more like prejudice leading to delusion. And why would anyone want that ?

quote:

Perhaps not. But what harm can it do? Why a reluctance to go out on a limb? Why a reluctance to take a leap of faith? (even if it can be reasoned as being irrational)

Let’s turn it around: what’s the harm in not doing that ? Why should anyone be blamed for not taking a leap of faith ? And what if you took the wrong leap of faith ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1612 by Phat, posted 01-26-2019 5:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6618
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1616 of 1677 (847758)
01-26-2019 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1613 by Phat
01-26-2019 5:59 AM


Re: Demons and delusions
Phat writes:

You don't have evidence either.

Why do I need evidence for not having a belief???

What I am saying is that you can't use evidence or lack of evidence to excuse your free choice not to have belief.

I don't need an excuse for not believing in what you believe.

Unless and until you make an attempt to understand how atheists think about this stuff you'll never get any understanding of how dumb these things sound to me.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1613 by Phat, posted 01-26-2019 5:59 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1618 by Phat, posted 01-26-2019 9:45 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6618
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1617 of 1677 (847759)
01-26-2019 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1614 by Phat
01-26-2019 6:05 AM


Re: Demons and delusions
Phat writes:

leprechauns never mess with our social order.

Many people believe just that.

His character, however, is undeniable, based on the writings...which are all we have ever had, even according to you.

His character is the character that the novelists gave him. In the book. By unknown authors. That never met him. Written decades after his death. Which, as you say, is all you have.

We can dismiss Him as fiction, but we cant deny the character described.

We can describe the character as written in the book. Just like we can describe the character of Bilbo Baggins as written in the book.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1614 by Phat, posted 01-26-2019 6:05 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1618 of 1677 (847760)
01-26-2019 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1616 by Tangle
01-26-2019 9:30 AM


Re: Demons and delusions
Unless and until you make an attempt to understand how atheists think about this stuff you'll never get any understanding of how dumb these things sound to me.
I've already watched the four horsemen. I know how atheists (some of them anyway) think. I also realize that much of what I say sounds bizarre. dumb, even. take it with a grain of salt....you should be used to my wild speculations by now.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1616 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2019 9:30 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1619 of 1677 (847762)
01-26-2019 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1606 by Phat
01-25-2019 6:44 PM


Re: Demons and delusions
Phat writes:

Why do you keep insisting that churches become scientists rather than believers?


I don't. I just wish you'd stop pretending that your dogmas "make sense".

Phat writes:

Besides, much of the evidence is controversial. The empty tomb arguments surrounding Jesus, for example. There is no clear nor concise explanation. Only different cases for or against.


We have an explanation, the same explanation that we have for Gollum's Ring.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1606 by Phat, posted 01-25-2019 6:44 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1621 by Phat, posted 01-26-2019 1:02 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1620 of 1677 (847763)
01-26-2019 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1612 by Phat
01-26-2019 5:55 AM


Re: Demons and delusions
Phat writes:

IF God desired that we take a leap of Faith, what harm is there in so doing?


And what if He didn't want you to jump off a bridge? You can't just embrace one side of an "if" and ignore the other. What if there's a special place in hell for people who believe?

Phat writes:

There are no good reasons to doubt that trusting God...even hypothetically...is somehow harmful.


Sure there are. He could be conning you. Or more likely, the shamans are conning you.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1612 by Phat, posted 01-26-2019 5:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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