|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Straggler writes: Firstly it wouldn't be meant or understood by a 1st century Jew as a literal cloud. In Exodus when God spoke to the Israelites He spoke to them from a cloud. They were led by a pillar of cloud. In Daniel 7 the Son of Man comes with the clouds of heaven. "Incidentally Acts doesn't say that He rose on a cloud it says He rose into a cloud." This would be understood as Jesus being lifted into the presence of God. I wondered what you make of the ascension? Do you believe Jesus resurrected physical body actually rose up to heaven on a cloud? As to whether He rose vertically or not I have no idea nor does it matter. Heaven was always envisioned as being up so it makes sense they would say that He was "lifted up" into God's heavenly space.
Straggler writes: You have me there. I am totally unfamiliar with your reference even after googling around. Do similar accounts of Augustus doing similar hold any water in your view?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
So what do you believe witnesses to the ascension did actually see?
Simply from the wiki entry on the ascension of Jesus.
Wki quote: quote:
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Straggler writes: It is interesting that in Luke’s Gospel it simply says that Jesus departed and was carried up to heaven. In Acts he talks about going up into a cloud. Mark says that He was received up in heaven. Matthew and John don’t have an account of the ascension. So what do you believe witnesses to the ascension did actually see?Actually the accounts are all pretty much the same. The account in Acts about ascending into a cloud is simply Luke’s way of saying that Jesus went into the presence of God. In the Exodus story there are several occasions where it records Yahweh speaking to them from a cloud. There is also the account of them being led by Yahweh in a pillar of cloud. Again, it wouldn’t have been meant as a physical cloud, but meant metaphorically as the presence of God. As far as being carried up is concerned people have always imagined God’s heavenly dimension as being up. In the end my best guess as to what they saw was that they saw Him simply disappear leaving our Earthly universe behind and returning to God’s heavenly universe. Straggler writes: Thanks for the link. It was interesting and informative. I don’t see a link however between the other ascension accounts and Luke’s. I see the ascension accounts in the Bible to being in reference again to Daniel 7, where the Son of Man is presented to the Ancient of Days and given dominion over the Kingdom. Another Jewish way of saying this was that He would be seated at God’s right hand. Simply from the wiki entry on the ascension of Jesus.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
So your interpretation, based on what’s in the bible, of what witnesses to Jesus’s ascension actually saw is that Jesus’s physical body just vanished in front of them. Is that correct?
I don’t however see a link between the other ascension accounts and Luke’s I don’t understand your reasoning here. The accounts and graphical depictions of the various ascensions are all pretty similar with the person in question being bodily elevated into the sky towards heaven to sit with the gods (or God in the case of Jesus’s ascension and presumably Mary’s ascension too). What’s the difference between the notion that Jesus ascended to join the Christian God and the notion that Augustus or Heracles ascended to heaven to sit with Jupiter or Zeus? I’m not seeing any great distinction.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Straggler writes: Maybe that is the case. The ascension accounts really just say that Jesus "ascended into God's presence. The book of Daniel and particularly Daniel 7 was a book that was clearly a major part of Jesus' self awareness. We know this as He very often refers to Himself as the "Son of Man". I don't see any of the Biblical references necessarily being about one particular instance. So your interpretation, based on what’s in the bible, of what witnesses to Jesus’s ascension actually saw is that Jesus’s physical body just vanished in front of them. Is that correct? Here is the Daniel 7 passage.quote:No doubt there had to be a last time that anybody witnessed the resurrected Jesus, (it might have been Paul), but I don't think that the various accounts of resurrection refer to one particular instance. They are all however saying that Jesus went into the presence of the "Ancient of Days" or the presence of God. Straggler writes: They may have borrowed some of the language used, but the difference is that people experienced the resurrected Jesus prior to His ascension. If there is no resurrection there is no ascension, and for that matter no Christianity. I don’t understand your reasoning here. The accounts and graphical depictions of the various ascensions are all pretty similar with the person in question being bodily elevated into the sky towards heaven to sit with the gods (or God in the case of Jesus’s ascension and presumably Mary’s ascension too). What’s the difference between the notion that Jesus ascended to join the Christian God and the notion that Augustus or Heracles ascended to heaven to sit with Jupiter or Zeus? I’m not seeing any great distinction. Edited by GDR, : Forgot to end the quoteHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What’s the difference between the notion that Jesus ascended to join the Christian God and the notion that Augustus or Heracles ascended to heaven to sit with Jupiter or Zeus? Probably the fact that there were witnesses to Jesus' ascension because it was real, while the other two were made up to fit the deity story. You don't offer any accounts of them after all.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
The Roman senator Numerius Atticus personally witnessed Augustus's ascension.
Link
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
|
GDR writes: The ascension accounts really just say that Jesus "ascended" into God's presence. Not really: Acts 1:6-11
quote: Who are the two robed men in your view?This sounds more like Jesus bodily rising upwards than just vanishing - No? And here are various images of Jesus ascension Link I can't find anywhere that agrees with your interpretation of Jesus just vanishing. As far as I can tell you just invented that. Do you have a link or other source that comes to that same interpretation?
GDR writes: They may have borrowed some of the language used.. But the ascension stories relating to Heracles and Romulus predate Christ and Augustus dies in 14AD so his probably does too. So I'm still lost as to the distinction you are making about the different ascension stories. If anything it seems that Christianity borrowed the idea of ascension from the Greeks and Romans. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Straggler writes:
Wiki in general supports my view. Here is a quote from it. I can't find anywhere that agrees with your interpretation of Jesus just vanishing. As far as I can tell you just invented that. Do you have a link or other source that comes to that same interpretation?quote:Here's the link The Ascension of Jesus Straggler writes: I'm not going to pretend to know. They aren't mentioned anywhere else including Luke's Gospel. It could be two of Jesus' followers who understood Jesus' message and announced their beliefs.
Who are the two robed men in your view? Straggler writes: Sure if you read it like we read 21st century accounts in a western culture. I contend that a 1st century Jew would understand it differently. If there was more than one account of this I would maybe understand it in a more literally way but it reads to me like the typical hyperbole of that culture.
This sounds more like Jesus bodily rising upwards than just vanishing - No? Straggler writes: It is possible that they used the language of ascension to make the statement that Jesus was King and Caesar wasn't. We aren't going to know for sure but it is strange that Luke only gives that account in Acts and not in his Gospel. But the ascension stories relating to Heracles and Romulus predate Christ and Augustus dies in 14AD so his probably does too. So I'm still lost as to the distinction you are making about the different ascension stories. If anything it seems that Christianity borrowed the idea of ascension from the Greeks and Romans. Edited by GDR, : No reason given.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
|
GDR writes: Wiki in general supports my view. I’m talking about what the witnesses of the acension actually observed. Because you (and others) have been talking about eyewitness accounts in this thread. And about how convincing they are to you. So I’m trying to get your thinking on the eyewitness account of the ascension rather than speculation about where Jesus ended up at the end of it all. Nowhere in wiki is there ANY support for your notion that Jesus just vanished before their eyes. Can you link to anywhere that has that interpretation or is that something you invented? On the other hand pretty much every depiction of the ascension (which generally predate depictions of the crucifixion btw) shows Christ rising up into the sky. A lot of them also show the two figures in white, as angels.
quote: Are you suggesting that the description above and the overwhelming majority of pictorial depictions going back millenia are unreliable and unconvincing as to what actually occurred....?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Straggler writes: There are accounts of the resurrected Jesus appearing and disappearing in the Gospels. However, the point of the ascension accounts is that Jesus was exalted by the Father. I'm content to say that this is what is understood, and that the accounts are likely to covey that message metaphorically. I’m talking about what the witnesses of the acension actually observed. Because you (and others) have been talking about eyewitness accounts in this thread. And about how convincing they are to you. So I’m trying to get your thinking on the eyewitness account of the ascension rather than speculation about where Jesus ended up at the end of it all. They may or may not have known that it was the final appearance, but the point is that it really isn't important. At some point He departed our Earthly dimension for God's heavenly dimension however it looked.
Straggler writes: Sure and we see lots of paintings of animals go 2 by 2 into the ark. So what? We see pictures depicting the parable of the Good Samaritan.
On the other hand pretty much every depiction of the ascension (which generally predate depictions of the crucifixion btw) shows Christ rising up into the sky. A lot of them also show the two figures in white, as angels. Straggler writes: I'd say that the are likely visual depictions of a metaphor. Are you suggesting that the description above and the overwhelming majority of pictorial depictions going back millenia are unreliable and unconvincing as to what actually occurred....?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
OK. So we can disregard what was supposedly witnessed in terms of the physical act of ascension as simply hyperbole and metaphor. And we’ve now abandoned the ‘just vanishing’ hypothesis too it seems.
Fair enough. But I do find it perplexing how you can put so much store in proclaimed-to-be-witnessed descriptions one minute and be so dismissive of them the next. It seems wholly inconsistent and utterly based on what you want to believe or find personally plausible. Apparently floating off into the clouds is a step too far for our miraculous and reanimated Jesus. I’d suggest that whatever motivated the ascension metaphor/hyperbole/fabrication may well of been at play in other areas that you are prepared to take as fact...
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Straggler writes: There is only one account that says more than just that He ascended . It even is inconsistent with his own previous account. Jesus' resurrection is consistent through all the writers in the NT. I’d suggest that whatever motivated the ascension metaphor/hyperbole/fabrication may well of been at play in other areas that you are prepared to take as fact... Possibly it did happen in roughly the way that is described in Acts 1, but frankly it only matters if you want to be a literalist. You get lots of cheers from Faith anyway. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Jesus' resurrection is consistent through all the writers in the NT. Googling ‘resurrection inconsistencies’ suggests that the various accounts differ pretty significantly. This is the first site that appears on that search Link ..it only matters if you want to be a literalist The (un)reliability of witness accounts in the bible matters if your position is largely based on how convincing you find witness accounts in the bible.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Straggler writes: I looked over the site you linked and some of the contradictions are valid. The point though is that by the time the Gospel compilations were put together there were differences in the accounts. The point is that they all agree that Jesus was resurrected and in a way that would not have been fabricated by 1st century Jews. Googling ‘resurrection inconsistencies’ suggests that the various accounts differ pretty significantly. Again, it is like witnesses to a car accident but not just a few hours later but in cases where the Gospels were compiled using the oral tradition decades later. Again however they consistently agree that Jesus was resurrected.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024