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Author Topic:   The Atheist Experience
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 166 of 283 (864880)
10-17-2019 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by jar
10-17-2019 8:11 PM


Re: Textual Criticism is a legitimate science
Genuine science works with the available facts, you are asking for something that isn't science.
In fact, if your definition were true, and we need to have the originals for science to be possible, then there is no way at all for the sciences of the old earth and evolution to be authentic because all of that has to be reconstructed from very few available facts, as we can't study what actually occurred in the past.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 8:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 8:15 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 167 of 283 (864881)
10-17-2019 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Faith
10-17-2019 8:13 PM


Re: Textual Criticism is a legitimate science
I'm pointing out that you have no available facts. There is no evidence of what was actually in the original texts.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Faith, posted 10-17-2019 8:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 10-17-2019 8:16 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 168 of 283 (864882)
10-17-2019 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by jar
10-17-2019 8:15 PM


Re: Textual Criticism is a legitimate science
And I've proved that you are wrong.
End of discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 8:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 8:27 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 169 of 283 (864883)
10-17-2019 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
10-17-2019 8:16 PM


Re: Textual Criticism is a legitimate science
No Faith, you have asserted that people try to figure out what was added or copy errors or common to multiple sources but you have offered NO reasoning or evidence or model or mechanism or method or process or procedure to demonstrate how anyone can know what was in the original manuscripts.
Edited by jar, : hat ---> what

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 10-17-2019 8:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 10-17-2019 9:37 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 170 of 283 (864884)
10-17-2019 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by jar
10-17-2019 8:27 PM


Re: Textual Criticism is a legitimate science
That information is very well known so your dismissal is simply perverse. The page I linked to the Blue Letter Bible covers it, but there is also a Got Questions page on the subject which says that they have determined the copies to be accurate.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 8:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by jar, posted 10-18-2019 7:36 AM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 171 of 283 (864886)
10-17-2019 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Faith
10-17-2019 6:02 PM


Re: Yes Christianity offers the ONLY answer
Faith writes:
It costs nothing, why do you keep using the word "sell?"
If they make a living at it, there must be some sort of transaction going on.
Faith writes:
You have no reason to call it a scam.
Jesus called it a scam. He said He didn't know the ones who said, "Lord! Lord!" - i.e. the ones who expected to be saved by faith alone.
Faith writes:
The whole point is it really IS free. Get out of jail free if you have to put it in such denigrating language. Free, got it? Free.
Then how do professional apologists make a living?
And by the way, Jesus didn't promise that the straight and narrow way would be free or easy. That's the broad way that leadeth to destruction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Faith, posted 10-17-2019 6:02 PM Faith has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 172 of 283 (864889)
10-17-2019 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Faith
10-17-2019 6:47 PM


Re: Yes Christianity offers the ONLY answer
quote:
And this is another big hoax against the truth, part of the whole attempt to substitute fake heretical New Testament manuscripts in the place of the Textus Receptus, touted as the "oldest" manuscripts and therefore the most authentic.
The Textus Receptus was an eclectic text from the Middle Ages.
Never mind the fact that there are no existing original Semitic (as in Hebrew or Aramaic) "New Testament" manuscripts. A problem that you constantly ignore. There are translations into Aramaic, from the Greek texts (which, in translation, don't fit 100% with the European "Textus Receptus", in fact there are missing parts and added parts in the Aramaic translations), but no ORIGINAL Aramaic texts.
The fact is that the entire existing "New Testament" shows evidence of being an original European work, though it bent and twisted (what was) a Middle Eastern religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 10-17-2019 6:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 10-18-2019 12:11 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 173 of 283 (864891)
10-18-2019 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by LamarkNewAge
10-17-2019 11:23 PM


Re: Yes Christianity offers the ONLY answer
Well, you have some sources of your own I guess, they certainly aren't the ones I trust. There should be no reason for an Aramaic version of the NT that I know of, it was written in Greek, and while fragments of many translations exist I don't see why an Aramaic translation would be of any importance one way or another.
The Textus Receptus is the best compilation of manuscripts as attested by all the scholars I trust.
If you want to read the best scholar on the subject in my opinion, read Dean John William Burgon, "Revision Revised" and "The Last Verses of Mark" and he's written many others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-17-2019 11:23 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-21-2019 12:32 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 174 of 283 (864901)
10-18-2019 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
10-17-2019 9:37 PM


Re: Textual Criticism is a legitimate science
Again, there is nothing there that shows how to tell what was in the original.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 10-17-2019 9:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 10-18-2019 10:34 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 175 of 283 (864903)
10-18-2019 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by jar
10-18-2019 7:36 AM


Re: Textual Criticism is a legitimate science
gain, there is nothing there that shows how to tell what was in the original.
Sheesh, jar, the comparison of thousands of fragments of manuscripts isn't something you can sum up in a sentence or two. But the bottom line is that MOST of them are identical, and that is a strong clue that they are accurate copies of the originals. The discrepancies are usually copy errors and it takes work to track them down. Sometimes they get copied into long sequences of copies, sometimes they got corrected along the way by other scribes. It takes expertise to figure out these things. But the bottom line, again, is that most of the text is identical through the many fragments and that allows them to say that they were accurately copied from the originals.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by jar, posted 10-18-2019 7:36 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by jar, posted 10-18-2019 10:53 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 177 by AZPaul3, posted 10-18-2019 10:56 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 176 of 283 (864905)
10-18-2019 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Faith
10-18-2019 10:34 AM


Re: Textual Criticism is a legitimate science
Again, that says nothing about the originals, only that there are lots of professional copyists.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 10-18-2019 10:34 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Phat, posted 10-18-2019 11:11 AM jar has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 177 of 283 (864906)
10-18-2019 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Faith
10-18-2019 10:34 AM


Re: Textual Criticism is a legitimate science
It really doesn’t matter how many fragments from how many copies look, feel, taste the same. Why would anyone give credence to what a cult of goat herders wrote down 3000 years ago? Or what a handful of zealots ghost wrote from other’s imaginary remembrances 2000 years ago?
Historical curiosity is one thing but you religious nutters have carried this thing too damn far. Reality awaits you, M’lady. Lift the scales from your eyes. Seek and ye shall find that all the old gods are dead. In truth, they never were. The human mind controls the spirit, not some disembodied ghosts.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 10-18-2019 10:34 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 10-18-2019 11:18 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 10-18-2019 8:10 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 178 of 283 (864907)
10-18-2019 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by jar
10-18-2019 10:53 AM


Re: Textual Criticism is a legitimate science
OK...and...? Why would there be any reason that the originals would be significantly different from the copies, given the bits of evidence that the copyists have presented so far? And why do you seem to like to introduce doubt into so many of our minds? Is this a preferred method of arriving at a truth? Subjecting all of the evidence to falsification in order to test it? If so, I suppose that I can understand...but it seems to me as if you would really rather that people simply threw these sources away and become their own source responsible for its own content. To be fair, however, I would admit that were the original source of importance, this too would eventually be revealed some way or another.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by jar, posted 10-18-2019 10:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by ringo, posted 10-18-2019 11:39 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 191 by jar, posted 10-18-2019 12:46 PM Phat has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 179 of 283 (864908)
10-18-2019 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by AZPaul3
10-18-2019 10:56 AM


Re: Textual Criticism is a legitimate science
Moses, the author of the Torah, was the adopted son of an Egyptian pharaoh, educated at court, not a goat herder. Paul was a highly educated Pharisee, Luke was a physician.
I lived your idea of "reality" for most of my life, milord, and I know truth when I see/hear it. Much as I appreciate the human mind as a magnificent creation that in itself proves the existence of God and the stupidity of evolution (a weird invention of that very mind), I also know it is fallen and can't tell the difference between its own fantasies and spiritual reality .. or any kind of real reality for that matter.
Cheers.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by AZPaul3, posted 10-18-2019 10:56 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Theodoric, posted 10-18-2019 11:47 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 182 by ringo, posted 10-18-2019 11:48 AM Faith has replied
 Message 189 by AZPaul3, posted 10-18-2019 12:31 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 180 of 283 (864909)
10-18-2019 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Phat
10-18-2019 11:11 AM


Re: Textual Criticism is a legitimate science
Phat writes:
Is this a preferred method of arriving at a truth? Subjecting all of the evidence to falsification in order to test it?
Duh.
Is that a surprise to you after all these years?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Phat, posted 10-18-2019 11:11 AM Phat has not replied

  
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