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Author Topic:   The Atheist Experience
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 196 of 283 (864935)
10-18-2019 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by jar
10-18-2019 12:51 PM


Re: On evidence
My point is that inclusiveness only exists in that God is available to all, but exclusive in that it is not on their terms or definitions. Your idea that God could and would reach everybody where they are at only holds water as far as it goes. Exclusivity is necessary for true monotheism. You cant have inclusivism and strict monotheism combined. They are antithetical.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by jar, posted 10-18-2019 12:51 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by ringo, posted 10-18-2019 4:38 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 200 by jar, posted 10-18-2019 4:46 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 197 of 283 (864936)
10-18-2019 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Thugpreacha
10-18-2019 4:35 PM


Re: On evidence
Phat writes:

Exclusivity is necessary for true monotheism. You cant have inclusivism and strict monotheism combined. They are antithetical.


How on earth do you figure that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-18-2019 4:35 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-18-2019 4:40 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 198 of 283 (864937)
10-18-2019 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by ringo
10-18-2019 4:38 PM


Re: On evidence
Because God isn't different rules for different people. You cant have a life where He leaves you alone (perhaps by not existing) and where you get to go do the message and earn your brownie points while also being able to sit on the barstool and knock back a few cold ones and essentially live in a world where everybody gets their own way and its all cool in the end.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by ringo, posted 10-18-2019 4:38 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by ringo, posted 10-18-2019 4:46 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 199 of 283 (864938)
10-18-2019 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Thugpreacha
10-18-2019 4:40 PM


Re: On evidence
Phat writes:

Because God isn't different rules for different people.


Why not? Even if your puny god can only fit your tiny mould, that has nothing to do with monothesism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-18-2019 4:40 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31646
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 200 of 283 (864939)
10-18-2019 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Thugpreacha
10-18-2019 4:35 PM


Re: On evidence
Phat writes:

I disagree that the mythos was spread by storytellers earning a living. That fits in conveniently with your world view, but not mine.

You are free to disagree but it's still true today. Every priest, pastor, rabbi, imam makes a living as a story teller. The Bible is a collection of collections of stories, each told originally by a story teller.

Phat writes:

My point is that inclusiveness only exists in that God is available to all, but exclusive in that it is not on their terms or definitions. Your idea that God could and would reach everybody where they are at only holds water as far as it goes. Exclusivity is necessary for true monotheism. You cant have inclusivism and strict monotheism combined. They are antithetical.

Which is why you should throw away all the Gods and gods. GOD is not the Gods and gods. All of the Gods and gods are just human creations.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-18-2019 4:35 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by AZPaul3, posted 10-18-2019 4:57 PM jar has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4740
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 201 of 283 (864941)
10-18-2019 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by jar
10-18-2019 4:46 PM


Re: On evidence
Which is why you should throw away all the Gods and gods. GOD is not the Gods and gods. All of the Gods and gods are just human creations.

Good GOD, Gods and gods! How many GOD, Gods and gods are we talking about here?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by jar, posted 10-18-2019 4:46 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by AlexCaledin, posted 10-18-2019 5:05 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
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AlexCaledin
Member
Posts: 62
From: Samara, Russia
Joined: 10-22-2016


Message 202 of 283 (864943)
10-18-2019 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by AZPaul3
10-18-2019 4:57 PM


Re: On evidence
Well, all the Players of the "Chess" game of Nature, as Feynman said in "Character of Physical Law".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by AZPaul3, posted 10-18-2019 4:57 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31646
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 203 of 283 (864945)
10-18-2019 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by AZPaul3
10-18-2019 4:57 PM


Re: On evidence
AZPaul writes:

Good GOD, Gods and gods! How many GOD, Gods and gods are we talking about here?

GOD, if GOD exists, is not going to be anything like what humans have created as gods or Gods.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by AZPaul3, posted 10-18-2019 4:57 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-19-2019 12:07 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33699
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 204 of 283 (864946)
10-18-2019 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by AZPaul3
10-18-2019 10:56 AM


religion of goat herders revisited
Why would anyone give credence to what a cult of goat herders wrote down 3000 years ago?

To review the point I made before, Moses was a prince in pharaoh's court and highly qualified to write down what his Hebrew family had taught him during those same years. When he heard God speaking through the burning bush during his years in Midian he had confirmation of what he'd been taught and knew he was in the presence of the Creator God. You look at that in your determined disbelief of course and dismiss it as a hallucination, and not even a hallucination since Moses doesn't exist according to you, but I digress.

But we who believe he was real and that it was really God who spoke to him in the bush and sent him to confront Pharoah, have the wonderful benefit of having been rewarded for our belief. You don't get rewarded unless you believe, which is why all your skepticism is only going to keep leading you in more circles of skepticism.

Hebrews 11:6 writes:

...he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The instruction isn't all that hard to follow and if you gave it a cincere go you'd find out that God is real. Scared to find that out?

But I digress.

The point I wanted to make is that this isn't a religion of goat herders, it's the religion God Himself revealed, truth not made but revealed. He could have continued to speak through burning bushes and it would still have been the religion that God Himself gave us, not the religion of burning bushes. In any case He inspired Moses to write down the evidences for His existence and character, and all you have to do is believe it. SO simple, just believe it. Your disbelief has no foundation except what seems reasonable by your own judgment. an idea that springs from the fallen human mind and has no other source of validity. Yes just a silly notion that gets dreamed up in your fallen head, and yet it has the power to keep you from discovering the truth, which you'd discover if you followed the simple rule: believe it as written. No, not just any old thing that is written, only what is written between the covers of what is called The Holy Bibie.

Or what a handful of zealots ghost wrote from other’s imaginary remembrances 2000 years ago?

You really do like the vaporings of self-inspired truth-manipulating "scholars. There's nothing deserving of your credence in what they say but somehow they exert this strange power over you and others.

Historical curiosity is one thing but you religious nutters have carried this thing too damn far. Reality awaits you, M’lady. Lift the scales from your eyes. Seek and ye shall find that all the old gods are dead. In truth, they never were. The human mind controls the spirit, not some disembodied ghosts.

I'm SO fortunate that I started out with such silly ideas, so that the truth could come in and overthrow them. They seem to have ossified into an impenetrable lump in your head unfortunately. if you sincerely tried believing even a small part of what the Bible teaches you would discover amazing things, but as long as you insist on the basis of absolutely nothing but your own prejudice that it isn't true you will never learn the truth.

This is not a religion invented by people of any sort at all, not goat herders, not zealous followers of a teacher, it's the truth given to us by God Himself.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by AZPaul3, posted 10-18-2019 10:56 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by AZPaul3, posted 10-19-2019 3:34 AM Faith has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4740
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 205 of 283 (864952)
10-19-2019 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Faith
10-18-2019 8:10 PM


Re: religion of goat herders revisited
Your prince of Egypt must have been a clever fellow indeed.

He certainly didn’t write his books in the ancient Middle Egyptian of 1700 BCE that he (supposedly) grew up with as his native language.

All your fragments and pieces parts of scrolls show that some parts of Genesis were written in early Hebrew while other parts a much later form of Hebrew; a span of 500+- years from a few centuries before to the time of the second temple, none of which time was of the time of your prince.

It's like the Declaration Of Independence being written in a mix of the Modern English of Thomas Jefferson and that of the late Old English of Beowulf while insisting it was written by the first Viking raiders to Saxony before English was even a thing.

How did he manage to write his Pentateuch in two different languages neither of which existed when the tomes were supposedly written?

Well, majik, of course. The very same majik that shows the foundations of air for the entire edifice.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 10-18-2019 8:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-19-2019 3:45 AM AZPaul3 has not yet responded
 Message 207 by Faith, posted 10-19-2019 3:54 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 206 of 283 (864953)
10-19-2019 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by AZPaul3
10-19-2019 3:34 AM


Re: religion of goat herders revisited
Actually the very same occultic majick that is twisting this unbelief into your mind.

You think that the apologists are the liars. A few are, but the majority have gotten the truth that the unbelievers cant grasp. I know you think that it is we who are twisted, but someday you will see the spiritual deception unmasked and hopefully reconsider your positions.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by AZPaul3, posted 10-19-2019 3:34 AM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by ringo, posted 10-19-2019 11:39 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33699
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 207 of 283 (864954)
10-19-2019 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by AZPaul3
10-19-2019 3:34 AM


Re: religion of goat herders revisited
Moses' life in court would only have given him an education to set him apart from "goat herders," that was my only point. He also spent time with his Hebrew family in those first forty years of his life and clearly learned the Hebrew language.

As for all the supposed languages in fragments of the OT, forgive me, milord, but I strenuously doubt your "facts" cuz I know you get them from sources I would dispute. They are a bunch of self-serving charlatans who are KNOWN to make up stuff about the Bible. As for the languages imputed to the original texts I doubt it, that's all. Prove it.

As for the fragments of manuscripts I was only addressing those of the Greek NEW Testament, of which there are 5300 going back to the tenth century. they have more fragments in Latin and other languages, but I was talking about the reconstruction of the original New Testament texts only.

As for the OT I'm not up on the textual criticism at all in that case, but I do know that when the OT texts found in the Dead Sea Scrolls are compared with our own current Hebrew text they are identical.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by AZPaul3, posted 10-19-2019 3:34 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by AZPaul3, posted 10-19-2019 4:37 AM Faith has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4740
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(2)
Message 208 of 283 (864955)
10-19-2019 4:37 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Faith
10-19-2019 3:54 AM


Re: religion of goat herders revisited
If the timeline your apologists insist is true were real then the language used cannot be. If the language your apologists insist is true were real then the timeline cannot be.

Your Moses could not have written any of the Pentateuch since the languages (multiple) did not exist at the time your apologists insist he wrote them.

Your scriptures were written by covies of priests from a population of goat herders over a 500+- year period. All of it embellished from a questionable oral history.

Denial of fact cannot help you.

Shucking and jiving to move the goal posts cannot help you.

The story you insist upon is inconsistent and contradictory. Like it was made up … fabricated … fantasy … like the silly stories we used to tell nieve little children about gods and majik trees and erudite snakes.

I do know that when the OT texts found in the Dead Sea Scrolls are compared with our own current Hebrew text they are identical.

Because they were written by the same covey of priests over the same period of time.

So what's the point? That they were written by the same covey of priests over the same period of time? I'll grant you that.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Faith, posted 10-19-2019 3:54 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 10-19-2019 4:53 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33699
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 209 of 283 (864956)
10-19-2019 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by AZPaul3
10-19-2019 4:37 AM


Re: religion of goat herders revisited
Googling the question of the languages got me only the information that Genesis and the whole OT were written in "classical Hebrew' which is an ancient form of the language, with the exception of parts in Daniel and Ezekiel written in Aramaic.

The fact that the Dead Sea texts are identical with ours was unexpected.

-------------

Stop trying to find excuses to reject it. It says simply: believe. All the scholarly reconstructions are subject to all kinds of errors. The Jews preserved the manuscripts carefully, regarding them as God's word. Google doesn't show different languages but even if there were there would be a reasonable explanation for it. Just believe.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by AZPaul3, posted 10-19-2019 4:37 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by AZPaul3, posted 10-19-2019 5:31 AM Faith has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4740
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 210 of 283 (864957)
10-19-2019 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Faith
10-19-2019 4:53 AM


Re: religion of goat herders revisited
quote:
The Hebrew language developed from the original Canaanite language shortly before 900 BCE. Some parts of Genesis are early Hebrew while other parts a much later form of Hebrew, reflecting the times when different passages were written. The presence of two Aramaic loan-words (31:47) is an indication that this part of the Book was written during or after the Babylonian Exile.
source

Stop trying to find excuses to reject him. Simply believe. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is real and places his noodly appendage gently upon you. All the scholarly reconstructions are subject to all kinds of errors. The Pastafarians preserved the gospels carefully, regarding them as The FSM's own word. Google doesn't show different languages but even if there were there would be a reasonable explanation for it. Just believe.

The Gospel of the Pastafarian Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 10-19-2019 4:53 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by AlexCaledin, posted 10-19-2019 6:24 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 229 by Faith, posted 10-19-2019 5:11 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
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