Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8945 total)
24 online now:
PaulK, Pressie (2 members, 22 visitors)
Newest Member: ski zawaski
Upcoming Birthdays: ONESOlivia, perfect
Post Volume: Total: 865,370 Year: 20,406/19,786 Month: 803/2,023 Week: 311/392 Day: 1/41 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Atheist Experience
AlexCaledin
Member
Posts: 62
From: Samara, Russia
Joined: 10-22-2016


Message 211 of 283 (864958)
10-19-2019 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by AZPaul3
10-19-2019 5:31 AM


Re: religion of goat herders revisited
The FSMists still have not developed their Dogmatic Sauceology to determine what sauce ought to be used for communion, and even what brand of spaghetti. So they in no small danger of most tragic schism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by AZPaul3, posted 10-19-2019 5:31 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-19-2019 11:12 AM AlexCaledin has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 212 of 283 (864961)
10-19-2019 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by AlexCaledin
10-19-2019 6:24 AM


The FSM is simply an attempt to discredit Jesus Christ
Though making what they see as a legitimate humerous point, advocates of the FSM have taken the ludicrously to new levels. They hang out here in Denver on the 16trh street open-air mall in downtown Denver trying to shout down the Christian Evangelists.

The basic argument is that anyone can make up a god to worship and make an argument as to that god's worthiness and legitimacy. Which is why I consider street evangelism to be a waste of time.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by AlexCaledin, posted 10-19-2019 6:24 AM AlexCaledin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Theodoric, posted 10-19-2019 11:29 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6799
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 213 of 283 (864964)
10-19-2019 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Thugpreacha
10-19-2019 11:12 AM


Jesus Christ is just an attempt to discredit Ahura Mazda
How dare you claim that your beliefs are more important or relevant than other peoples beliefs.

Entitled, white, Christian shit at it's finest


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-19-2019 11:12 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-19-2019 11:51 AM Theodoric has responded
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 10-19-2019 4:42 PM Theodoric has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17519
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 214 of 283 (864965)
10-19-2019 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Thugpreacha
10-19-2019 3:45 AM


Re: religion of goat herders revisited
Phat writes:

You think that the apologists are the liars. A few are, but the majority have gotten the truth that the unbelievers cant grasp.


Show us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-19-2019 3:45 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 215 of 283 (864966)
10-19-2019 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Theodoric
10-19-2019 11:29 AM


Re: Jesus Christ is just an attempt to discredit Ahura Mazda
Theodoric writes:

How dare you claim that your beliefs are more important or relevant than other people's beliefs.

Point taken. I am not as impressed with your argument as I am curious about the passion and vitriol directed against any exclusive truth claims.

First off, the basic reason that I "dare to" speak publically and freely about my beliefs is that they are under assault by many relativistic truth claims which essentially pits inclusivism against exclusivism. How do I differ from anyone else who stands upon a stump and demands to be heard...like this bloke in the video? One thing which I note in his tone of voice and in your implied tone of words is a fierce hatred towards exclusivity. He seems to mock the Christian evangelist, who upon observation does appear to be white---though that was never brought up until you brought it up---but which opens an entire can of worms regarding Christianity, Western Culture, White Privilege vs subjugation of Native Populations, and the philosophical debate between Relativism and the dissonance between Philosophy and Christian Theology. Why jump to the accusation that I am acting like an entitled brat, simply because I seek to argue and defend my beliefs as I currently understand them?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Theodoric, posted 10-19-2019 11:29 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Theodoric, posted 10-19-2019 2:39 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 216 of 283 (864967)
10-19-2019 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by jar
10-18-2019 6:53 PM


Re: On evidence
jar writes:

GOD, if GOD exists, is not going to be anything like what humans have created as gods or Gods.

And I suppose that from a knowledge standpoint, thats all that we can say. All of the candidates have an equal shot at this election. Ridiculous ones such as our noodly spaghetti monster should be as worthy of consideration as the historic arguments for Jesus of Nazareth.

The irony is also great in this debate. Even if the apologists and Christians are right, their very behavior as human beings on this planet causes others to doubt the power of their candidate, even if He is the right one. Theodoric brings up the whole white privilege thing and points out (indirectly...I am taking the liberty to assume his argument) that the whole European use or misuse of Jesus of nazereth and Christianity focused on subjecting the native populations of this planet to be forced to accept their "God" upon threat of being wiped out otherwise.

Critics could argue that this was not real Christianity, but jar has defended the critics before:

jars belief statement writes:

The Bible writes, (paraphrasing here), that to whom much is given much is expected.

I think that is accurate, and the base for my belief that most Christians will end up as Goats, not among the Sheep. They have been given much, the whole instruction book as well as a personal tutor. The sad part is that most will never get it.

Many believe all are born damned and sinful, and that they have some sinful nature. It's not their fault, mankind is fallen. But they have this Get Outta Hell Free card.

Unfortunately, when it comes to judgment day I believe they will see the card stamped "Not Valid".

GOD will judge us with full knowledge. We cannot lie, bribe, flatter or fake our way through that. (...)We are the sum of our experiences.

I am also a Christian. As I see Christianity is both a set of teachings and also the body, the communion of Christians down through the ages. Some Christians were great, some evil, most simply forgotten. All though were Christian.

Later I learned more about the history of this thing, this communion called Christianity. What I learned was not always pleasant, much, in fact, was horrific. Very little was as simple or serene as what I had been taught.

What I learned was that down through the ages many horrific things were done in the name of Christianity and by Christians. Protestants oppressed Catholics, Catholics oppressed Protestants, and both oppressed every other religion. Down through the ages the Jew came in for special attention, being expelled from nearly every country and their property seized. Time after time it happened.

I learned about how the Native Americans were taken from their homes, given new names, had their hair cut, forbidden to speak their own language, sent to Christian Schools where they had to learn a new religion, how their old religion was mocked and forbidden.

I learned how the Codices and tablets were burned by the Padres that accompanied the Conquistadores, what happened in Hawaii, what happened throughout South and Central America.

I saw the white church members standing at the curbs shouting “Let the dogs loose” or “Turn on the hoses”, and saw the Christian Schools popping up like toadstools as the white Christian parents pulled their kids out of public school so they would not have to sit next to a monkey. I saw churches that had been bombed or burned out, bodies of people working for equal rights after they had been shot, sometimes mutilated.

I look around today and see other Christians shouting “God hates Fags” and voting time after time to ban same-sex marriages and claiming that Islam is barbaric.

Christianity must, IMHO, accept responsibility for the evil as well as the good done in its name.

In discussions at EvC and at other places, when the more horrific acts are brought up, one response I often hear is “They were not real Christians” or “That is not what Christ taught.” I disagree with the former and agree with the later. I also think that using either as an excuse or as a way to shirk responsibility is dishonest. Granted it is not what Christ taught but it IS what Christians did, and in every case I examined, the people were honest, sincere and believed strongly that what they were doing was right and that it was the Christian thing to do. They were all sure that they were morally right.

The Missionary teacher that helped bring the poor savages to the Missionary School, who clothed the kids, cut their hair, gave them good Christian Names, taught them to read and maybe even write, taught them about GOD did so to save the kids souls.

The Padre that accompanied the Conquistadores and that burned the Codices did it for what they saw as the best of reasons, saving souls. This refrain has been repeated time after time and over issue after issue. It is only later when we look back on the sermons written on how to civilize the savage, what the place of the Blackman in society is, on the terrible wrong we did in destroying cultures and beliefs that we realize how wrong we were.

If we are to avoid making such errors in the future, I believe we must honestly acknowledge what we have done in the past, that “but by the grace of GOD” those people could be us and that we too are capable of committing such horrific acts. If we try to claim that they were somehow different than us, that they were not real Christians, then I fear we are bound to continue down that path.

It is one of jars better arguments here at EvC and I am reminded of it whenever I am tempted to use the "but they were not real Christians" excuse.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by jar, posted 10-18-2019 6:53 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 10-19-2019 1:30 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 221 by AZPaul3, posted 10-19-2019 4:29 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31611
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 217 of 283 (864968)
10-19-2019 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Thugpreacha
10-19-2019 12:07 PM


Re: On evidence
Phat writes:

And I suppose that from a knowledge standpoint, thats all that we can say. All of the candidates have an equal shot at this election. Ridiculous ones such as our noodly spaghetti monster should be as worthy of consideration as the historic arguments for Jesus of Nazareth.

But there is no stronger historical argument for Jesus of Nazareth than there is for any of the Gods or gods humans have created.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-19-2019 12:07 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-19-2019 4:09 PM jar has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6799
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 218 of 283 (864969)
10-19-2019 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Thugpreacha
10-19-2019 11:51 AM


Re: Jesus Christ is just an attempt to discredit Ahura Mazda
Because you defend your beliefs by attacking others.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-19-2019 11:51 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-19-2019 3:59 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 219 of 283 (864970)
10-19-2019 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Theodoric
10-19-2019 2:39 PM


Re: Jesus Christ is just an attempt to discredit Ahura Mazda
I was admittedly attacking that loudmouth wannabe actor in that video for trying to shout down the evangelical on the mall. I won't argue against his free speech rights, however...I just saw his behavior as desperate and pushy. He lied about Jesus also, which makes me angry. I will stand by your charge of attacking others in this case, however. Guilty.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Theodoric, posted 10-19-2019 2:39 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 220 of 283 (864972)
10-19-2019 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by jar
10-19-2019 1:30 PM


Re: On evidence
Given that your statement is true, which I won't argue for the moment...(there are several arguments that supported what you claim which I reviewed) I can only say that people will argue for what is important to them. You claim that the evidence shows that humans make up every single God that they preach about or worship. Or at least you will say that this is all that evidence can support. I will only say that I believe that God exists, is not a God of any one culture except for humanity-at-large through Jesus (He very well could appear differently to different regions of the universe)and am attempting to make a case for Jesus as God incarnate. Even here we will have disagreements. Many will claim that Jesus was but a human teacher whereas I desperately attempt to portray Him as having the power to intervene and assist humanity in our crucial times coming up. If what you guys argue is true...that it will only be humans remaking the world that they want--then I fear that we are in for some tragic and terrible times. All of the old ideological wars of our past will loom up large again. And Theodoric is right in that it will be especially hard for white people (who may have been entitled in the past) to face this reality despite being stripped of the privileges which we considered birthrights. I'm not claiming to be an asshole...I'm just saying that it will be a true challenge to be Christlike while making do with less and less in this life.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 10-19-2019 1:30 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by jar, posted 10-19-2019 4:35 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 225 by ringo, posted 10-19-2019 4:43 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4731
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 221 of 283 (864974)
10-19-2019 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Thugpreacha
10-19-2019 12:07 PM


Re: On evidence
GOD, if GOD exists, is not going to be anything like what humans have created as gods or Gods.

And I suppose that from a knowledge standpoint, thats all that we can say. All of the candidates have an equal shot at this election. Ridiculous ones such as our noodly spaghetti monster should be as worthy of consideration as the historic arguments for Jesus of Nazareth.

The election was held 300 years ago. Reality won. How about we take the only actual logical step and dismiss them all as fantasies? Throw away all the GOD, Gods and gods. Reality has been elected Dictator-For-Life and there is no going back.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-19-2019 12:07 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31611
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 222 of 283 (864976)
10-19-2019 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Thugpreacha
10-19-2019 4:09 PM


Re: On evidence
Phat writes:

I'm just saying that it will be a true challenge to be Christlike while making do with less and less in this life.

Whether or not you will have to do with less is entirely up to you.

Again, look at the evidence.

Almost every First World nation (and most Second and Third World nations) on Earth except the US has found a way to provide health care even better than the US norm without their citizens having less and less.

Almost every First World nation (and most Second and Third World nations) without their citizens having less and less.

Almost every First World nation (and most Second and Third World nations) on Earth except the US has found a way to provide infrastructure even better than the US norm without their citizens having less and less.

The list goes on.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-19-2019 4:09 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-19-2019 4:43 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33651
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 223 of 283 (864977)
10-19-2019 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Theodoric
10-19-2019 11:29 AM


Re: Jesus Christ is just an attempt to discredit Ahura Mazda
How dare you claim that your beliefs are more important or relevant than other peoples beliefs.

That's crazy. It either is or it isn't.

Christianity is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Theodoric, posted 10-19-2019 11:29 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Theodoric, posted 10-19-2019 5:37 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 224 of 283 (864978)
10-19-2019 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by jar
10-19-2019 4:35 PM


Re: On evidence
Perhaps I simply see a threat because I myself am becoming older and more vulnerable. It does not feel good to any longer feel invincible as I did in my Richard Nixon/ Jimmy Carter/Ronald Reagan era youth. Perhaps Theodoric hit the nail on the head by pointing out my smug and exclusivist attitude which I was largely unaware of. Many of my personal fears in this life have had a lot to do with money and what I expected to have vs what I actually ended up with. Projecting my own personal insecurities into the fate of the United States at large is one of my habits, but to be fair I feel that the United States contains a lot of people who think and fear similar to myself. Many of them were the populists who elected Trump. Personally I never liked the guy that much. I tended to support unionism as long as it helped me secure benefits for myself.

Critics would accuse me of supporting MEism rather than UNIONism, and I continue to wonder what it is in my life that caused me to be so selfish. Its hard enough to give a homeless guy any money when I fear that I lack enough for retirement, but lately I have began to look at their plight as something I could also go through if circumstances changed.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by jar, posted 10-19-2019 4:35 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17519
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 225 of 283 (864979)
10-19-2019 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Thugpreacha
10-19-2019 4:09 PM


Re: On evidence
Phat writes:

...I'm just saying that it will be a true challenge to be Christlike while making do with less and less in this life.


That seems backwards. The less you have, the easier it should be to be Christlike. Christ didn't have much.

Note that the widow who only had two mites had less trouble giving it up than the rich man.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-19-2019 4:09 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-19-2019 4:47 PM ringo has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019