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Author Topic:   The Atheist Experience
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 256 of 283 (865401)
10-24-2019 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Thugpreacha
10-23-2019 8:46 PM


Re: Show me otherwise
Phat writes:

These three examples were of the poorest of the poor.


No, Ananias and Sapphira were not poor. They had land to sell.

Phat writes:

I dont think Jesus expects me to give all I have.


I didn't ask you for your opinion. I already know what your opinion is. I asked you to back up your opinion using Jesus' words.

Phat writes:

If you think that Jesus expects me to keep giving more away, you have a hard argument...


No I don't. It's in the Bible, in black and white.

(Note that I am not the one telling you to give more. I would accept your reasoning. But the question is, would Jesus accept your reasoning?)

Phat writes:

...especially since you are an unbeliever.


The Bible says what it says, whether I'm a believer or an unbeliever.

Phat writes:

What is He gonna do to help me?


You're the believer. You tell me.

Phat writes:

You seem to advocate that a follower of Christ needs to willingly embrace a life of poverty.


I'm not advocating that you should follow your leader. I'm just wondering why you don't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-23-2019 8:46 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-24-2019 4:19 PM ringo has responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 229
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


(1)
Message 257 of 283 (865406)
10-24-2019 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Thugpreacha
10-23-2019 8:46 PM


Re: Show me otherwise
Looking around at people these days and seeing how competitive and greedy many are, I worry that they will hustle harder than I am capable of and snatch all the choice picks before I get a chance to pick.

I dont think Jesus expects me to give all I have. If so, I literally would be homeless. All that I have is my apartment...which really belongs to Moms trust and which may need to be sold in order to care for her. The rents in Denver these days are astronomical. I have no savings. I only live on the gracious income brought about through my job. Thank God He let me get that back. I lost it in 2016 if you recall. I am 60, diabetic, losing sensation in my legs and feet, I have sleep apnea, I'm getting weaker with age and my blood sugars are too high. If you think that Jesus expects me to keep giving more away, you have a hard argument---especially since you are an unbeliever.

Hi Preacha,

I'm a type 1 diabetic, I feel your pain in the health department. Luckily, I have a good job with great healthcare and fantastic doctors, which I'm grateful for. I'm really saddened by your story, and you are certainly not in a unique position in this country...it's unfortunately a very common refrain for millions of Americans in this age of the cavernous wealth gap, where the average Joe works very hard for very little.
I'm also surprised at how bitter you sound at the economic system you were brought up in, yet at the same time defend it so vociferously; all while disdaining another type of system that offers you, and others like you protections against homelessness, hunger, and lack of heath care in your declining years.

Your attitude is perfectly reasonable in almost any normal sense of the word...you need safety and basic social protections as you approach your declining years. No one is saying you should not have this basic dignity. No one is advocating that you should lose everything by giving all you have to others. The problem is that Jesus DID say this, several times to be clear. The Early Church practiced this form of socialism as recorded in Acts. And at least a couple of people were killed for not participating fully. It feels like you really want Jesus' words to be real and true, but where the rubber really meets the road, in the deepest, most meaningful and real part of your life... Personal security...you see how futile those words really are, and you want to get out and "Hustle and snatch" (your words) to get "your own." Where your life is deepest and most real, you choose reality over faith. I think that is a good thing, and I'm really glad you do. You can't take care of others if you don't take care of yourself also. But that's really, really not what Jesus taught. And I hope on your videos, and on this forum, you won't advocate that younger, stronger people follow words of Jesus that you are afraid of, and that might leave them as vulnerable as you are at your age. I don't know if I'm saying what I mean clearly.

You say you worry that others will get out and hustle better that you can, and snatch more than you can, but it seems likely that you have had your chance to hustle and hoard, and you let it slip by, and it is gone. With your age and health, I imagine most of your opportunities to hustle and stock up your savings are behind you. I'm sad about this, I hope it's not true, but...

*sigh*

I'm a former Christian, a non-believer. I don't believe in following Divine words of Jesus, and don't think you should be under any obligation to do so either. But on a practical side, I would be happy to pay a few percent higher taxes, if I knew that they would be used to help you, and other good people just like you live and age with grace and dignity. I just wish you, and other people like you, would vote with me to elect the type of legislators we need to put policies into place that would allow this to happen!

Edited by Aussie, : Bad grammar...


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-23-2019 8:46 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-24-2019 4:24 PM Aussie has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 258 of 283 (865413)
10-24-2019 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by ringo
10-24-2019 11:45 AM


Was The Snake In The Wilderness With Jesus?
All that I have to go on when interpreting scripture or even life, in general, is Jesus. You throw a few choice pet scriptures in my face all of the time, and I look for ways to explain them. Not to get off of some proverbial hook. I owe you no apologies. But the author of the books, the One whom I believe exists eternally, demands that I answer you and will judge me according to my honesty as well as the works that I do rather than any excuses I may give for not doing them.
When I whine to everyone here, He has heard it all through prayer long before I decided to go public with it. You are correct in that it is He whom I must answer to---ultimately.

It's in the Bible, in black and white.
Indeed. Is that our basic criteria for validating this argument? That its "in the Bible"? Perhaps thats all we can go on in a forum full of a mixture of believers and unbelievers. Attempting to interpret what Jesus means falls flat here. All that we have to argue with is what Jesus actually said.
The Bible says what it says, whether I'm a believer or an unbeliever.
Fair enough. Lets take an arguably similar experience with an offstage voice replacing the snake. Classic apologetics views the snake as satan and there is no doubt that it is satan in Jesus's wilderness adventure...so I will attempt to contrast the two events. Feel free to dismiss the apologetic attempt to explain scripture, because the bottom line is that you and anyone else will interpret it based on how you understand it. You claim that I need to find an apologist who agrees that God lied and the snake told the truth but you won't find many. We all know that God cannot lie. We also know that scripture itself suggests that Satan knows scripture and can use it if need be. (This is the classic apologetic excuse for your whole schpiel.)

Do I believe it? Maybe. I am allowing myself to question it and also to question whether it is you making me feel uneasy or whether it is a genuine challenge, be it by snakes, satan, or even God Himself.

Let's contrast the snakes interaction with Eve and the devil's interaction with Jesus in the wilderness.

Gen 3:1-7 writes:

Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?"

2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'"

4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.


  • The serpent causes Eve to question God.
  • The serpent challenges what God allegedly instructed, and gives his own interpretation.(How is this being truthful?) You seem hung up on one technicality concerning when and if Adam & Eve died or not. truth mixed with any percentage of lies=lies, not truth. Humans have been ignoring God ever since. Particularly Christians, as you point out. And I still disagree with what you claim to be the plain teaching--namely that God lies and the snake tells the truth. You simply are using scripture without understanding or believing the overall context.

    Lets now examine the exchange between Jesus and the devil in the wilderness.

    Matthew 4:1-11 writes:

    Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness

    4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

    4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.”

    5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

    “‘He will command his angels concerning you,
    and they will lift you up in their hands,
    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

    7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.”

    8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

    10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.”

    11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.


    In context, we are discussing the plain reading of the book(s) without bothering with private interpretation.
    ringo writes:

    You can have all the mystery and surprise you want as long as it doesn't interfere with reality.

    What if it does? Why is it not ok for me to ignore parts of the book and yet you can chuck the belief in the author of the book while keeping the message? What value is the message if not taken in context with the intention of the authors? One thing I know (or believe, at any rate) is that humans won't survive by taking the message and stripping it of the power of the author, giving our secular humanist selves the power to do without the need to believe.

    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 256 by ringo, posted 10-24-2019 11:45 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 260 by Faith, posted 10-24-2019 4:25 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
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    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 13193
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 259 of 283 (865415)
    10-24-2019 4:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 257 by Aussie
    10-24-2019 1:56 PM


    Re: Show me otherwise
    Aussie writes:

    You say you worry that others will get out and hustle better that you can, and snatch more than you can, but it seems likely that you have had your chance to hustle and hoard, and you let it slip by, and it is gone. With your age and health, I imagine most of your opportunities to hustle and stock up your savings are behind you. I'm sad about this, I hope it's not true, but...

    It is.
    I did nearly exactly as you said. The main difference between us is that I choose to believe and you do not. I can see merits in both positions.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 257 by Aussie, posted 10-24-2019 1:56 PM Aussie has not yet responded

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 33699
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 260 of 283 (865416)
    10-24-2019 4:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 258 by Thugpreacha
    10-24-2019 4:19 PM


    Re: Was The Snake In The Wilderness With Jesus?
    I think you are making this way too difficult. It's the Book of Revelation that reveals that the snake in the Garden of Eden was Satan, you don't need any apologetics to make the case. And that's the only place Satan is depicted as a snake, otherwise he appears throughout scripture as the fallen angel he is.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 258 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-24-2019 4:19 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 261 by jar, posted 10-24-2019 4:40 PM Faith has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 31646
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 261 of 283 (865418)
    10-24-2019 4:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 260 by Faith
    10-24-2019 4:25 PM


    Re: Was The Snake In The Wilderness With Jesus?
    Hint.

    Revelation is NOT Genesis 2&3 and so is totally irrelevant in determining what is in Genesis 2&3.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 260 by Faith, posted 10-24-2019 4:25 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 264 by Faith, posted 10-24-2019 8:56 PM jar has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17538
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 262 of 283 (865419)
    10-24-2019 6:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 258 by Thugpreacha
    10-24-2019 4:19 PM


    Re: Was The Snake In The Wilderness With Jesus?
    Phat writes:

    We all know that God cannot lie.


    No. We do not know that.

    Phat writes:

    You seem hung up on one technicality concerning when and if Adam & Eve died or not.


    It isn't a "technicality". It's the whole bloody point.

    Phat writes:

    You simply are using scripture without understanding or believing the overall context.


    You're grasping for a context that isn't there.

    Phat writes:

    Why is it not ok for me to ignore parts of the book and yet you can chuck the belief in the author of the book while keeping the message?


    Because you claim to believe in the author. How can you honestly pick and choose parts of the story to accept?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 258 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-24-2019 4:19 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 31646
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 263 of 283 (865420)
    10-24-2019 7:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 258 by Thugpreacha
    10-24-2019 4:19 PM


    Re: Was The Snake In The Wilderness With Jesus?
    Phat writes:

    Why is it not ok for me to ignore parts of the book and yet you can chuck the belief in the author of the book while keeping the message?

    You are free to ignore whatever you want but that does not change the fact that the story actually says what is written. There is no reason that you cannot ignore reality if you so desire.

    Phat writes:

    What value is the message if not taken in context with the intention of the authors?

    We cannot know what the intent of the authors was but we can know what the authors wrote.

    Phat writes:

    One thing I know (or believe, at any rate) is that humans won't survive by taking the message and stripping it of the power of the author, giving our secular humanist selves the power to do without the need to believe.

    And what does the evidence show? Are humans surviving without the need to believe?

    Edited by jar, : fix quotebox


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 258 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-24-2019 4:19 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 33699
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 264 of 283 (865423)
    10-24-2019 8:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 261 by jar
    10-24-2019 4:40 PM


    Re: Was The Snake In The Wilderness With Jesus?
    Hint: The Bible is to be read as a whole, and all its parts are to be read in the context of all the other parts of it. Standard rules there.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 261 by jar, posted 10-24-2019 4:40 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 265 by PaulK, posted 10-25-2019 12:44 AM Faith has responded
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    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 15565
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 265 of 283 (865429)
    10-25-2019 12:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 264 by Faith
    10-24-2019 8:56 PM


    Re: Was The Snake In The Wilderness With Jesus?
    quote:
    Hint: The Bible is to be read as a whole, and all its parts are to be read in the context of all the other parts of it

    Hint: The Bible is a collection of works written from a variety of perspectives. Which includes reinterpretations of earlier works. What you’d call revisionism. Funny that someone who so frequently complains about revisionism would endorse it.

    quote:
    Standard rules there.

    Rules which are hardly sensible if you want to understand the Bible. The original audience of Genesis would have no idea of the content of Revelation.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 264 by Faith, posted 10-24-2019 8:56 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 266 by Faith, posted 10-25-2019 2:32 AM PaulK has responded

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 33699
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 266 of 283 (865431)
    10-25-2019 2:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 265 by PaulK
    10-25-2019 12:44 AM


    Re: Was The Snake In The Wilderness With Jesus?
    The contemporaries of any given part of the Bible would only have it up to that part but they would have known to read it all as one piece. Cuz it isn't any ordinary collection of writings, they all work together in amazing ways if you understand them as God's own revelation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 265 by PaulK, posted 10-25-2019 12:44 AM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 267 by PaulK, posted 10-25-2019 4:07 AM Faith has not yet responded
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    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 15565
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 267 of 283 (865434)
    10-25-2019 4:07 AM
    Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
    10-25-2019 2:32 AM


    Re: Was The Snake In The Wilderness With Jesus?
    quote:
    The contemporaries of any given part of the Bible would only have it up to that part but they would have known to read it all as one piece.

    The fact that they didn’t have it all is sufficient to show that the later parts are not necessary for understanding. The idea that they would not have realised that the works they had were separate and expressed differing views is just weird, why wouldn’t they know that?

    quote:
    Cuz it isn't any ordinary collection of writings, they all work together in amazing ways if you understand them as God's own revelation.

    I understand that you think it’s just a tool for putting your beliefs in God’s mouth. That doesn’t make it right in any sense of the word.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 266 by Faith, posted 10-25-2019 2:32 AM Faith has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 31646
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 268 of 283 (865436)
    10-25-2019 7:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 264 by Faith
    10-24-2019 8:56 PM


    Re: Was The Snake In The Wilderness With Jesus?
    Faith writes:

    Hint: The Bible is to be read as a whole, and all its parts are to be read in the context of all the other parts of it. Standard rules there.

    That is only the conjob of the CCoI.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 264 by Faith, posted 10-24-2019 8:56 PM Faith has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 31646
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 269 of 283 (865437)
    10-25-2019 7:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
    10-25-2019 2:32 AM


    Hint: it's the Books of the Bible
    Faith writes:

    The contemporaries of any given part of the Bible would only have it up to that part but they would have known to read it all as one piece.

    Utter nonsense and another example of the gross and complete ********* of the CCoI.

    The contemporaries of ANY given part of the Bible knew each was a separate and individual scroll and not some whole. Trying to mash them all together is a purely later Christian invention and even there there is no uniformity since "the Bible" is as few as just five books in the smallest canon and over eighty books in the largest canon.

    There is not and never has been any such thing as "The Bible™". Even today the tradition is to acknowledge that it is NOT one unified writing by the convention of "The Books of the Bible" not "The Book of the Bible".

    Edited by jar, : No reason given.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 266 by Faith, posted 10-25-2019 2:32 AM Faith has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
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    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 13193
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 270 of 283 (865446)
    10-25-2019 12:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 269 by jar
    10-25-2019 7:51 AM


    Re: Hint: it's the Books of the Bible
    The tradition of whom? You dismiss a large segment of Christianity as ignorant and clueless. Keep in mind that when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, the devil himself knew scripture, and attempted to use it against Jesus. I am careful to not just take the text as written using conventional logic, reason, and reality.

    There is a lot that you don't trust about the CCoI and a lot that you have not experienced. Because of your warnings, I have been more careful to compare and contrast teachings in context, but I believe (though cannot prove) that the source (God) is as important as the content. Don't get me wrong. I respect your scholarly critical thought approach. I just think you are missing something in the way of communion with God.

    I expect that you will label this link as part of the conjob, but we think that you can be conned also. How To Read The Bible In Context

    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 269 by jar, posted 10-25-2019 7:51 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 272 by ringo, posted 10-25-2019 12:16 PM Thugpreacha has responded
     Message 277 by jar, posted 10-25-2019 2:49 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

      
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