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Author Topic:   The Right Side of the News (renamed)
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 3586 of 3767 (867295)
11-23-2019 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 3570 by marc9000
11-22-2019 8:58 PM


Re: Constitutionalism? oops now "originalist" pt 1: re guns
I don't expect that, while I'm sure the NRA and others have explained this very thoroughly, ...

Can you show that those "explanations" use an originalist approach, or you are not an originalist and you accept a non-originalist argument ... which means you are not an originalist.

... I believe the 2nd amendment refers to two completely separate things, and the only reason they're in the same amendment is because they both involve arms; ...

Can you show an originalist basis for this belief of yours?

... and arms rights for individuals, to always be an intimidating factor against an imperial government.

Again, can you show an originalist basis for this belief of yours?

It seems pretty clear to me that there are reasonable limits as I said:

Note that I do not see anywhere any provision for individuals to use arms to murder large numbers of innocent citizens going about their normal everyday business, or for arming them for such purpose.

I think you would agree that the founders would find such behavior abhorrent.

quote:
Justice Scalia on 2nd Amendment Limitations: 'It Will Have to Be Decided'

Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia says "yes, there are some limitations that can be imposed" on the constitutional right to keep and bear arms. It's up to future court cases to determine what those limitations are, he said on "Fox News Sunday."

Some limitations "undoubtedly" are permissible, Scalia said, because limitations existed when the Constitution was written: "For example, there was a tort called affrighting, which if you carried around a really horrible weapon just to scare people, like a head ax or something, that was, I believe, a misdemeanor," he explained.

"I mean, obviously, the (2nd) amendment does not apply to arms that cannot be hand-carried. It's to 'keep and bear.' So, it doesn't apply to cannons. But I suppose there are hand-held rocket launchers that can bring down airplanes that will have to be -- it will have to be decided."


And carrying loaded mass murder weapons in public would also be a misdemeanor (affrighting), because that was the law when the constitution was written.

You don't give me any reason to think otherwise.

... But to answer your question, if Scalia were alive today, he'd probably change his mind. ...

This is laughable, and totally incongruous to a purported originalist mindset. You might just as well say that Jefferson, Madison, et al would probably change their minds about weapon possession, which curiously is what gun control advocates have been saying.

In other words you take what you believe and then cherry pick arguments from others to suit your belief/s.

... Because climate change hysteria has gotten out of hand. ... We have Percy and many others convinced that some coastal cities are going to be underwater very soon, and there's nothing that can be done about it now. The list of this type of thing goes on and on, and it can only lead to one logical conclusion, that the U.S. today is in more danger of government searches and seizures than it ever has been in history. ... The targeting of small, defined segments of the population, one step at a time, is the only way to meet the significant, greenhouse gas reducing demands of angry, jealous mobs who constantly point fingers at others for climate change solutions.

And you're going to use guns to combat this?

It boggles the mind that you would think making the world cleaner and better needs to be combated by groups of rag-tag gun individuals with AK-47's and the like running around shooting at rising sea level.

Curiously I think the biggest threat to "the U.S. today is in more danger of government searches and seizures than it ever has been in history" because of ICE and Humpty Dumbty Trumpty's treatment of immigrants ... but I don't see you being in any way disturbed by that problem.

Do you think people should arm themselves with AK-47 and bazookas etc and provide armed resistance to ICE?

Just asking.

The time for individuals to be armed is more important today than ever before, if the U.S. is to avoid a Venezuela style collapse.

That was caused by US CIA meddling and sanctions?

Have Norway, Sweden, Denmark, etc, collapsed? No? Then the problem is not democracies with socialist programs (like welfare, healthcare for all, free education, police, national defense, etc) within a capitalist system where taxes are used to benefit the people, more specifically the working people, as opposed to companies and rich people.

What scares you about healthy, educated, happy people (these nordic nations have the highest happiness in the world) living an economically secure life?

quote:
US-Led Economic War, Not Socialism, Is Tearing Venezuela Apart

Americans have been trained by decades of Cold War propaganda to look for any confirmation that “socialism means poverty.” A quick, simplistic portrait of the problems currently facing Venezuela, coupled with the fact that President Nicolas Maduro describes himself as a Marxist, can certainly give them such a confirmation. However, the actual, undisputed history of socialist construction around the world, including recent decades in Venezuela, tells a completely different story.

Hugo Chavez was elected president of Venezuela in 1999. His election was viewed as a referendum on the extreme free market policies enacted in Venezuela during the 1990s. In December, when I walked through the neighborhoods of central Caracas, Venezuelans spoke of these times with horror.

Venezuelans told of how the privatizations mandated by the International Monetary Fund made life in Venezuela almost unlivable during the 1990s. Garbage wouldn’t be collected. Electricity would go off for weeks. Haido Ortega, a member of a local governing body in Venezuela, said: “Under previous governments we had to burn tires and go on strike just to get electricity, have the streets fixed, or get any investment.”

Chavez took office on a platform advocating a path between capitalism and socialism. He restructured the government-owned oil company so that the profits would go into the Venezuelan state, not the pockets of Wall Street corporations. With the proceeds of Venezuela’s oil exports, Chavez funded a huge apparatus of social programs.

The artificially low oil prices have left the Venezuelan state cash-starved, prompting a crisis in the funding of the social programs that were key to strengthening the United Socialist Party.

It is odd that the mainstream press blames “socialism” for the food problems in Venezuela, when the food distributors remain in the hands of private corporations. As Venezuelan political analyst Jesus Silva told me recently: “Most food in Venezuela is imported by private companies, they ask for dollars subsidized by the government oil sales to do that; they rarely produce anything or invest their own money.”

According to Silva, the economic sanctions imposed on Venezuela by the U.S., in addition to the oil crisis, have made it more difficult for the Venezuelan government to pay the private food importing companies in U.S. dollars. In response, the food companies are “running general sabotage.”


It is not socialism per se but a cascade of reasons, some of them imposed from the outside.

But even so, what is being advocate in the US is not socialism but FDR "new deal" type programs while leaving capitalism as the main economic model, using social programs to benefit people to temper the bad effects of excessive capitalism (like poverty, income insecurity, etc).

The time for individuals to be armed is more important today than ever before, if the U.S. is to avoid a Venezuela style collapse.

But you're not worried at all about a collapse into Fascism and the destruction of our democratic republic from within by Moscow McConnell and Humpty Dumbty Trumpty ... sad.

Enjoy


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This message is a reply to:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 5610
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 3587 of 3767 (867296)
11-23-2019 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 3585 by Faith
11-23-2019 9:26 AM


Re: Democrat Lies just keep going and going and going
All the testimony is evidence. Sondham is no Democrat. The stories are consistent and damning for Trump.

And neither you nor anyone has any meaningful response.

“Was there a quid pro quo?...The answer is yes.”

Run away! Run away!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3585 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 9:26 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 3588 of 3767 (867298)
11-23-2019 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 3587 by JonF
11-23-2019 10:28 AM


Re: Democrat **** just keep going and going and going
I'm supposed to take somebody's opinion for evidence? Huh? Especially someone who clearly said Trump said he wanted no quid pro quo? Eh?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3587 by JonF, posted 11-23-2019 10:28 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17665
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(3)
Message 3589 of 3767 (867314)
11-23-2019 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 3588 by Faith
11-23-2019 10:39 AM


Re: Democrat Lies just keep going and going and going
Faith writes:

I'm supposed to take somebody's opinion for evidence?


Nobody cares what you take as evidence. It's what the investigators take as evidence that counts.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 3591 by RAZD, posted 11-23-2019 1:43 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5610
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 3590 of 3767 (867326)
11-23-2019 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 3588 by Faith
11-23-2019 10:39 AM


Re: Democrat Lies just keep going and going and going
Describing what you saw and heard is not just opinion. Trump did it. The stories are clear and consistent.

Sondland faithfully recounted Trump's obvious self-serving lie, which he said after he got caught. But you believe that everyone who protests innocence is telling the truth, right? If you were in charge nobody who claims innocence would ever go to prison, amirite?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 3592 by vimesey, posted 11-23-2019 1:45 PM JonF has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 3591 of 3767 (867329)
11-23-2019 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 3589 by ringo
11-23-2019 11:22 AM


And the evidence keeps growing ...
quote:
As Pompeo faces scrutiny over his role in Ukraine, documents further tie him to Giuliani
The State Department records show Rudy Giuliani reaching out to Pompeo in March, around when Giuliani began promoting investigations into the Bidens and Burisma.

A tranche of State Department documents obtained by the advocacy group American Oversight suggest Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Trump’s personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani discussed US-Ukraine policy as early as March 2019, further tying Pompeo to the ongoing impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump.

The documents — obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request — lay out Giuliani’s efforts to establish direct contact with Pompeo. They also seem to support the public testimony of US Ambassador to the EU Gordon Sondland, who told lawmakers Wednesday “everyone was in the loop” when it came to Trump’s campaign to pressure Ukraine into investigating the Biden family.

The nearly 100 pages of new documents could point to the beginning of that involvement for Pompeo, who has worked to distance himself from the pressure campaign.

They show Giuliani’s personal assistant, Jo Ann Zafonte, reaching out to Trump’s then personal assistant, Madeleine Westerhout, and asking for Pompeo’s contact information on March 27.

Giuliani has said he gave Pompeo a dossier with complaints about former US Ambassador to the Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch in between those two calls, on March 28. Yovanovitch was dismissed from her post shortly after; Trump has said he fired her because she was “not an angel,” because she wouldn’t hang his picture in the US embassy in Ukraine, and because he was told she didn’t like him. Yovanovitch has testified she believes she was fired because her anti-corruption work interfered with the business plans of Giuliani and his associates.


So he was "in the loop" about Biden/Burisma etc

then we have

quote:
Lev Parnas Helped Rep. Devin Nunes’ Investigations

The indicted Giuliani associate helped arrange meetings and calls in Europe for the Republican congressman in 2018.

Nunes is the top Republican on the House committee handling the impeachment hearings—hearings where Parnas’ name has repeatedly come up.

Congressional records show Nunes traveled to Europe from Nov. 30 to Dec. 3, 2018. Three of his aides—Harvey, Scott Glabe, and George Pappas—traveled with him, per the records. U.S. government funds paid for the group’s four-day trip, which cost just over $63,000.

The travel came as Nunes, in his role on the House Intelligence Committee, was working to investigate the origins of Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s probe into Russian election-meddling.

Parnas’ assistance to Nunes’ team has not been previously reported. A spokesperson for Nunes did not respond to requests for comment


So he meets with known corrupt Ukrainians to look into evidence to backup Humpty Dumbty Trumpy's conspiracy theory based on Russian propaganda, and then claims in the hearing that the issue was rooting out Ukrainian corruption ...

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
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vimesey
Member
Posts: 1017
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 3592 of 3767 (867330)
11-23-2019 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 3590 by JonF
11-23-2019 11:55 AM


Re: Democrat Lies just keep going and going and going
If you were in charge nobody who claims innocence would ever go to prison, amirite?

Only if they're Republicans. If they're Democrats, they're going down.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3590 by JonF, posted 11-23-2019 11:55 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 5610
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 3593 of 3767 (867341)
11-23-2019 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 3592 by vimesey
11-23-2019 1:45 PM


Re: Democrat Lies just keep going and going and going
I stand corrected.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3592 by vimesey, posted 11-23-2019 1:45 PM vimesey has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 3594 of 3767 (867343)
11-23-2019 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 3573 by marc9000
11-22-2019 9:26 PM


Re: Constitutionalism? re Trump's Criminal Behavior pt #2
My answer is a resounding NO, ...

Good, proud of you.

... and it doesn't pass your smell test because I didn't address your false statement. Trump has never said, or implied, that he can "do whatever he wants". ...

Trump appears before teenage audience and declares, 'I can do whatever I want'

Trump Said It, ‘I Can Do Whatever I Want’ In Bonkers Interview. Above The Law, Much?

Trump Claims Article 2 Gives Him ‘The Right To Do Whatever I Want As President’

Try again.

... What he does is responds to questions about whether he thinks he can do whatever he wants in a certain, defined situation. Like when he's dealing with a foreign leader, or working with classified information. ...

Which is why he withdrew suddenly from Syria after a phone call with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan letting the Turks invade and letting Russian troops into area held by US soldiers, taking over their barracks.

Which is why he tried to Bribe newly elected Ukrainian President Volodymyr Oleksandrovych Zelensky by withholding aid to do some dirt digging on Biden/Burisma/DNC Server fantasy conspiracy idiot theory, again weakening the US foreign policy, putting Ukrainian soldiers in weaker position and strengthening Russia's position.

Which is why he discussed top secret information at Mara Lago over dinner in public ... with Russians.

... He has a lot of responsibilities and duties under the constitution, and this is a more dangerous time than most of the past, in that Trump has many in a Democrat congress who would freely commit treason to block him from succeeding at something, or to help get him removed from office.

Can you tell me what treason you think Democrats would do? Conspire with a foreign government to hack the election like he has done?

First off, Hunter Biden was investigated and cleared by Ukraine prosecutors in May.

I would prefer that he was investigated by Americans.

So Trump is wrong to ask Ukraine to do it?

Second, that's not the question. It is against Federal campaign law to ask for or receive assistance from a foreign country. Here is Humpty Dumbty Trumpty asking for a political favor from Ukraine.

If only we had an investigation of the phone calls Hillary made in obtaining the Steele Dossier. But you wouldn't be interested, would you?

Five comments:

First I think Hillary and the DNC were wrong in their campaign to block Bernie, and that if they had not done that the emails would not have been a problem for them.

Second the "Steele Dossier" was started by Never-Trumpers

Third the company that was involved with the "Steele Dossier" (Fusion GPS) is an American company, not a foreign country.

Fourth the investigations into Hillary re Bengazi were longer than this hearing on Trumps abuse of power.

Fifth you didn't answer the question again

Was his use of his position to attempt to extort a foreign government leader into assisting his re-election campaign overstepping the bounds?

No. Attempting to discover the truth about possible criminal activity of the son of Joe Biden, who isn't, and won't be, his opponent in 2020, had nothing to do with his re-election campaign.

Second, that's not the question. It is against Federal campaign law to ask for or receive assistance from a foreign country. Here is Humpty Dumbty Trumpty asking for a political favor from Ukraine.

If only we had an investigation of the phone calls Hillary made in obtaining the Steele Dossier. But you wouldn't be interested, would you?

It's a simple question: is it okay for Trump to ask a foreign country for personal political aid in spite of it being against Federal Laws.

Yes OR No  

This is all trivial, witch hunt stuff. We'll find out how important all this is when the current impeachment stuff is over.

Bribery is trivial, using the position of president to extort something of personal benefit is trivial ... got it.

A large part of the reason Trump was elected was to challenge all the "this is how we've always done it" mindset in dealing with foreign countries. ...

Creating disasters as he goes because he doesn't understand the value of diplomacy and treaties.

... He's doing it from his experience as a businessman, not a politician. And of course the answer to that is "he's failed at everything he's ever done!!!!!" ...

And proving in the process that business management is not a good working model for government management.

... But since unemployment is now at a 50 year low, maybe he's finally learned how to do something in his old age.

Carrying on a trend from Obama ... from wiki

Meanwhile more workers are working two or three jobs to make ends meet, and available jobs are minimum wage or worse.

Plus you have more workers who are outside the unemployment calculations. Considered unemployable. More homeless people. More poverty.

Plus you have the highest farm bankruptcies and suicides ...

Amid Trump Tariffs, Farm Bankruptcies And Suicides Rise

Well you give yourself a pretty convenient position, since I'm an originalist I have to adhere to a stringent interpretation of the constitution (interpreted by you) and you living constitutionalists can justify bending and shaping the constitution any way you want, "to promote the general welfare"?

That's the shoes you put on when you claim to be an originalist ... if they fit wear them.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : Fusion GPS for cloudstrike


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 3596 by DrJones*, posted 11-23-2019 4:18 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19076
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 3595 of 3767 (867344)
11-23-2019 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 3567 by marc9000
11-22-2019 8:10 PM


Re: Fox News Gets the Facts Backward
marc9000 writes:

It wasn't clear to me whether you accepted the reality of the hollowing out of rural America and the dramatic impacts it is having.

Yes, though I don't think give away programs and increased government involvement is going to solve much.

Well, we sort of agree. Certainly give away programs should only be part of a social safety net, not long term answers, but government does need to be involved. I don't know what form government rural assistance would take, but rural America needs help. It's amazing that so many Representatives and Senators and governors in red states get elected by promising to do less and less for rural folk as their life's blood is sucked out into the cities.

I do understand that a big reason for increased hardships in rural America is environmental requirements and restrictions.

I have no idea why you think this. What "environmental requirements and restrictions" do you think rural America is suffering under.

One example; there wasn't much need for hospitals in the region of the Keystone XL pipeline when Obama was president, because he didn't allow construction activity there.

There was no "region of the Keystone XL pipeline." That pipeline would have run through many regions in a narrow, narrow and long, long strip of land. Looking this up, construction of a pipeline goes at the rate of about a mile a day. Pipeline construction crews are mobile units. By the time you built and staffed a rural hospital in one region, pipeline construction would long since have moved on. And how many people do you think pipeline construction takes, anyway? Building a pipeline isn't like discovering oil and gas in the local area.

Yes, Obama vetoed the pipeline bill, but even if he had instead signed the bill it wouldn't have resulted in increased hospital construction in rural areas. A lack of local skilled healthcare is just one of burdens of living in modern rural America. Seems like something government should give some serious attention to. Nearly a century ago we had the Rural Electrification Bill that guaranteed electric service to all of rural America. Maybe now's the time for a Rural Healthification Bill.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Typo.


This message is a reply to:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2021
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 3596 of 3767 (867345)
11-23-2019 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 3594 by RAZD
11-23-2019 4:13 PM


Re: Constitutionalism? re Trump's Criminal Behavior pt #2
Third the company that was involved with the "Steele Dossier" (Cloudstrike) is an American company, not a foreign country

Crowdstrike isn't associated with the Steele Dossier, that was Fusion GPS. The people who've bought into the russian misinformation campaign allege that Crowdstrike is behind the "disappearance" of the DNC server.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3594 by RAZD, posted 11-23-2019 4:13 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 3597 of 3767 (867346)
11-23-2019 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 3588 by Faith
11-23-2019 10:39 AM


Re: Democrat Lies just keep going and going and going
I'm supposed to take somebody's opinion for evidence? Huh? Especially someone who clearly said Trump said he wanted no quid pro quo? Eh?

What Sonderland said was that Trump said to him "no quid pro quo" that he "wanted no quid pro quo" ... and "talk to Rudy" ... but that in fact there was an actual quid pro quo because of the information he had from Rudy acting for the president.

See the distinction?

Trump lies, we know that. It is well documented. So the question is: who do you trust more ... (lying) Trump on the lawn, or Sonderland testifying under oath?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 19076
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 3598 of 3767 (867361)
11-23-2019 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 3582 by Faith
11-23-2019 5:42 AM


Re: Democrat Lies just keep going and going and going
Faith writes:

I can't answer all this stuff so I guess I shouldn't post at all.

Wittgenstein said, "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."

I know Trump is being honest, not "changing his tune" to accommodate any of the Democrat bullshit, I'm just astonished at how you are all able to manipulate simple things to make him out to be some kind of criminal and I can't answer that stuff.

The reason you have no answers is because there is no defense against the plain testimony we've just witnessed over the past two weeks.

Weird how first it was Russian collusion and the sense of certainty about that was amazing,...

One Trump Tower meeting. Multiple Wikileaks contacts (Stone just convicted). Over 140 contacts between the Trump campaign and Russian agents or representatives. One corrupt Attorney General of the United States.

...oh any day now Trump is going to go under,...

Not sure what you mean by "go under." If you mean resign then no, no one thought that. If you mean many thought the Mueller report sufficient to begin impeachments proceedings, then yes, that is correct.

...then it was obstruction of justice,...

Yes, Mueller enumerated eleven instances of obstruction of justice by the Trump administration.

...he's guilty guilty guilty,...

And acts it, too.

...then along came this whistleblower who isn't even qualified to be a whistleblower but is just spy in the White House.

You don't know who the whistleblower is, but pretty much everything in the whistleblower complaint was confirmed by the transcript provided by the White House, and by all the recent testimony before Congress.

Trump should have cleaned out ever last one of the previous administration's staff but he stupidly didn't.

While we don't know the whistleblower's identity, it's strongly suspected that he's a member of the intelligence community detailed to or near the White House.

Democrat Presdients do but Republicans want to be fair and where does it get them.

Incoming presidential administrations of both parties always retain huge numbers of civil servants. It's not possible to rebuild the bureaucracy every four or eight years. By and large it is only the upper reaches of the administration who are replaced, such as cabinet members and major department heads.

It gets them spies in the white house and a whole cadre of enemies trying to bring them down accusing them of all kinds of stuff they aren't guilty of.

According to all the testimony we've heard, pretty much everything the whistleblower said is true. Trump has abused the of power of his office and obstructed justice.

And it doesn't seem to matter what it is, if one accusation falls apart well we'll just set up another one, and we'll just keep making him responsible for the stuff our guys actually did.

No one is holding Trump or the Trump campaign or the Trump administration responsible for anything they didn't do. They did do everything described in the Mueller report and in the recent testimony before Congress. It isn't a question of whether those acts occurred, but whether they rise to the level of impeachment.

Hillary committed real obstruction of justice...

If that were actually true then the Republican controlled Department of Justice under Trump appointee William Barr would charge her.

...and Russian collusion...

This is still as false as it was all the other times people explained to you the difference between gathering information from Russians and conspiring with Russians.

...but we'll ignore all that...

No, no, let's not ignore all that. Let's you explain why you turn a deaf ear each time this is explained.

...and accuse Trump of it instead.

Again, Trump and his campaign and his administration did do everything documented in the Mueller report and everything people testified about to Congress over the past two weeks. It's just a matter of whether it's impeachable.

Biden committed the real quid pro quo for personal reasons and...

You repeating the same many-times debunked points is getting tiresome.

Trump did no such thing but we'll stick it on him anyway.

Bribery and extortion charges are sticking to Trump because people witnessed him doing such things and then testified to Congress about it. Have you been in a cave?

What Trump said on phone calls to the Ukraine and what he actually did are all within normal operations for American Presidents but the Democrats twist it into something criminal.

It isn't necessary to twist anything to see that pressuring foreign leaders into lending domestic political assistance is potentially criminal or impeachable or both.

So amazing, turning the US government into a third world swamp for their own political corrupt reasons.

Well, yes, that's what Trump is doing.

There are people who can deal with all these shifts and twists but I'm not up to it.

This is kind of vague, but if you're referring to your inability to muster any facts in support of your opinions, then I agree.

You have to go out of your way to get the truth these days...

All you have to do to get the truth is follow a decent news outlet, or watch the Congressional hearings on TV the past two weeks.

...since the inyourface media are all on the left,...

The news media is anti-corruption, whether committed by the left or the right or anyone in between.

...and there is no motivation to do that so you just believe...

I just believe? Please leave me out of this.

...whatever the latest lie is concocted by the leftist media and the House Democrats and whoever else doesn't mind destroying the American republic for political gain against a duly elected President.

Neither the left nor the media nor the Democrats had anything to do with the Trump/Zelensky phone call or what was testified to. Trump and his administration did it all by themselves.

The gullibility on the left is astonishing but it's beyond my ability to deal with it.

An aptitude for ignoring facts is not an effective method of persuasion.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3582 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 5:42 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3599 by jar, posted 11-24-2019 7:29 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 3599 of 3767 (867366)
11-24-2019 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 3598 by Percy
11-23-2019 11:51 PM


Re: Democrat Lies just keep going and going and going
It's interesting to see how many of the people Trump selected done came and went and are now speaking out against him.

If anyone remembers HR McMaster it is worth reading his book "Dereliction of Duty" once again since it is relevant to this Administration.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3598 by Percy, posted 11-23-2019 11:51 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6833
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 7.0


(1)
Message 3600 of 3767 (867368)
11-24-2019 8:39 AM


Calvin Trillin, deadline poet
Lindsey Graham, Legal Scholar

The cops have stormed a bank in time to snare
The robbers. Caught red-handed, they’re still there.
Their trial would hinge, per Lindsey Graham’s quotes,
On who called 911 and how he votes.


For this generation of far-right nationalists, religion is not a question of ethical conduct; it is purely about identity and peoplehood. -- Jan-Werner Müller

  
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