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Author Topic:   The Right Side of the News
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 3646 of 5796 (867839)
12-03-2019 9:41 PM


Fake News From the Right Wing Media
According to subpoenaed phone records by House Democrats, the White House, Republican Devin Nunes (ranking Republican on the House Intelligence Committee), the budget office, Rudy Giuliani, Lev Parnas (indicted partner of Giuliani) and conservative journalist John Solomon coordinated a disinformation campaign of Trump-backed conspiracy theories about the Ukraine around April of this year.
Source: Democrats obtained phone records showing how Trump allies coordinated 'false narratives' - CNNPolitics
Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 3647 of 5796 (867849)
12-04-2019 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 3641 by marc9000
12-01-2019 4:30 PM


Re: More Trump Attack/Insult Tweets
Let's try this again. You and Faith have claimed that attacks and insults from Trump are not something he initiates but are only his response to attacks and insults from Democrats and the mainstream media. This is what Trump said today in London in answer to a question about House Intelligence Committee Chair Adam Schiff:
quote:
"I’ve learned nothing from Adam Schiff. I think he’s a maniac. Adam Schiff is a deranged human being. I think he grew up with a complex for lots of reasons that are obvious. I think he is a very sick man. And he lies. Adam Schiff made up my conversation with the president of Ukraine.
...
"This guy is sick. He made up the conversation. He lied. If he didn’t do that in the halls of Congress, he'd be thrown in a jail. But he did it in the halls of Congress, and he’s given immunity. This is a sick person. He is a liar."
Trump mentions Schiff's parody of Trump's phone conversation with Zelensky, but that was way back in September. What current attack or insult is Trump responding to here? Or is it your contention that once Trump concludes he's been attacked or insulted that he has infinite license for issuing future attacks and insults?
Current attacks/insults score: Trump: 49; Democrats: 1
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3641 by marc9000, posted 12-01-2019 4:30 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3733 by marc9000, posted 12-07-2019 10:08 PM Percy has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 3648 of 5796 (867854)
12-04-2019 9:58 AM


Fact-checking Politico on Faith's favorite article
PolitiFact | What we know about the Politico story at the heart of a Ukraine conspiracy theory
quote:
The article itself cautions that the actions of the Ukrainians to oppose Trump were not as expansive or as centrally controlled as the election interference by Russia. But those nuances have been ignored by Trump allies, who have chosen to play up the Ukrainian efforts outlined in the article rather than the more extensively documented Russian meddling. …
"Politico’s investigation found evidence of Ukrainian government involvement in the race that appears to strain diplomatic protocol dictating that governments refrain from engaging in one another’s elections," Vogel and Stern wrote.
But the article also states that the attempt wasn’t comparable in scale to Russia’s meddling in the election, which was outlined at length in former special prosecutor Robert Mueller’s report. "The Russian government interfered in the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and systematic fashion," the Mueller report said, citing everything from Russian spy agency hacking to coordinated social media efforts.
According to Politico’s article, "Russia’s effort was personally directed by Russian President Vladimir Putin (and) involved the country’s military and foreign intelligence services, according to U.S. intelligence officials," they wrote. "There’s little evidence of such a top-down effort by Ukraine." …
"When you dig down into the details," the efforts by Ukraine and Russia were "very, very different," Stern [one of the authors - JonF] said on CNN in July 2017. "What we said in the article is that we don't have, as far as we can see, the type of top-down and wide, broad attack on the American election that was being alleged."
"The article did not state that the Ukrainian government conspired with the Clinton campaign or the DNC," said Melissa Cooke, a booking manager for Politico, in an email. "It also emphasized that the acts of Ukrainian officials to raise questions about Trump were not comparable to Russia’s interference in the 2016 election, and reported that the then-Ukrainian government was trying to make amends with then-President-elect Trump."

Replies to this message:
 Message 3650 by Faith, posted 12-04-2019 12:58 PM JonF has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 3649 of 5796 (867857)
12-04-2019 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 3639 by jar
12-01-2019 4:02 PM


Re: The Shoe on the Other Foot: Chick-fil-A Edition
They have completely backtracked. So now they have pissed off fundies as well as people that care about fair treatement for homosexuals. Never ate there, never will. They still contribute to orgs that promote hate against non fundie christians.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3639 by jar, posted 12-01-2019 4:02 PM jar has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 3650 of 5796 (867863)
12-04-2019 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 3648 by JonF
12-04-2019 9:58 AM


Re: Fact-checking Politico on Faith's favorite article
Oh well now isn't THAT predictable. They'll throw their own under the bus if they don't agree with the prevailing opinion. Politico's investigation is clearly honest but oh no we have to unearth some kind of fault in it to save the agenda. So they found that the Ukainian involvement was not equal in scale to the Russian involvement. \
But of course that isn't the point. Politico specifically showed that Ukraine was working on Hillary's side against Trump, whereas the Russians aren't clearly identified as working for either side. The Politico article was very clear that Ukraine's efforts were against Trump and actually did have an effect on our election, whereas that is not said about the Russian efforts however greater their scope.
This is all a pretty transparent attempt to obscure the point of the Politico article: the interference was NOT for Trump but against him. And yes when Trump won the election, Ukraine scrambled to make up to him, for that very reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3648 by JonF, posted 12-04-2019 9:58 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3651 by Taq, posted 12-04-2019 1:03 PM Faith has replied
 Message 3652 by JonF, posted 12-04-2019 1:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 3651 of 5796 (867864)
12-04-2019 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3650 by Faith
12-04-2019 12:58 PM


Re: Fact-checking Politico on Faith's favorite article
Faith writes:
Politico specifically showed that Ukraine was working on Hillary's side against Trump,
There is no evidence that there was a government supported effort to support Hillary on the part of the Ukrainians. At most, individual Ukrainians voiced their poor opinions of Trump.
This is completely different than what we saw with Russia. In the case of Russia, government money flowed into groups that posted fake news about Hillary Clinton, and government money supported the hacking of the DNC server. This is not in any way comparable to the opinions voiced by individual Ukrainians.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3650 by Faith, posted 12-04-2019 12:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3653 by Faith, posted 12-04-2019 1:15 PM Taq has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 3652 of 5796 (867866)
12-04-2019 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 3650 by Faith
12-04-2019 12:58 PM


Re: Fact-checking Politico on Faith's favorite article
Politico's investigation was honest and apparently truthful.
It showed that some Ukrainian politicians preferred Hillary (as did many foreign politicians) but they didn't do much about it.
It specifically stated that Russian intervention on Trump’s behalf was on a much larger scale than anything Ukrainians did.
So I think the article is a dependable source but slanted, especially in its light-handed treatment of Manafort’s crimes, to which he pled guilty.
Which doesn't support Trump’s or your claims. Russia interfered on Trump’s behalf on a scale that dwarfs anything any other actors did. Nothing other than Russia's actions are significant enough to discuss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3650 by Faith, posted 12-04-2019 12:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 3653 of 5796 (867867)
12-04-2019 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 3651 by Taq
12-04-2019 1:03 PM


Re: Fact-checking Politico on Faith's favorite article
Righto, we must protect the Democrat point of view no matter what, so under the bus goes the Politico story which clearly identified the Ukrainian GOVERNMENT as working for Hilllary, which is why it also reported that they had to scramble to make friends with Trump after he won.. And up we come again with the Russian collusion accusation although we know that the "dirty dossier" against Trump came from Russian sources through Christopher Steele and was paid for by Hillary Clinton.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3651 by Taq, posted 12-04-2019 1:03 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3654 by Taq, posted 12-04-2019 1:19 PM Faith has replied
 Message 3655 by JonF, posted 12-04-2019 1:50 PM Faith has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 3654 of 5796 (867869)
12-04-2019 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 3653 by Faith
12-04-2019 1:15 PM


Re: Fact-checking Politico on Faith's favorite article
Faith writes:
Righto, we must protect the Democrat point of view no matter what, so under the bus goes the Politico story which clearly identified the Ukrainian GOVERNMENT as working for Hilllary,
Where in the evidence for the claim that the Ukrainian government worked for Hillary?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3653 by Faith, posted 12-04-2019 1:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3657 by Faith, posted 12-04-2019 2:49 PM Taq has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 3655 of 5796 (867874)
12-04-2019 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 3653 by Faith
12-04-2019 1:15 PM


Re: Fact-checking Politico on Faith's favorite article
Righto, we must protect the Democrat point of view no matter what, so under the bus goes the Politico story which clearly identified the Ukrainian GOVERNMENT as working for Hilllary,
Nope.
But it did clearly identify Russia as the source of the only widespread and significant Interference.
And up we come again with the Russian collusion accusation although we know that the "dirty dossier" against Trump came from Russian sources through Christopher Steele and was paid for by Hillary Clinton.
Paid for in a normal, common, and legal commercial transaction.
The Steele dossier is a minuscule portion of the evidence for collusion.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3653 by Faith, posted 12-04-2019 1:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3656 by Faith, posted 12-04-2019 2:01 PM JonF has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 3656 of 5796 (867878)
12-04-2019 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 3655 by JonF
12-04-2019 1:50 PM


Re: Fact-checking Politico on Faith's favorite article
Golly gosh, "Government officials" you'd use to deny that the Ukraining government itself was behind the interference? Despite the fact that the Ukrainian government is reported as having to scramble to make it up to Trump after he won?
Nobody is denying Russian interference, but there is no evidence it was for Trump, certainly none of Russian collusion by Trump's campaign, and the only clear evidence, the "dossier" was for Hillary, as is the Ukraining interference. Why on earth would they want a conservative American President anyway? Hillary is right up their political alley, Trump is not.
Paid for legally? That makes it OK to use false information to destroy Trump's campaign? Oh and now it is called "minuscule" evidence for collusion. Well, it's the "evidence" that launched the Mueller investigation. And no other was found by that investigation, just a bunch of connections that were unrelated to the election.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3655 by JonF, posted 12-04-2019 1:50 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3658 by JonF, posted 12-04-2019 4:03 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 3662 by Taq, posted 12-04-2019 6:17 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 3657 of 5796 (867881)
12-04-2019 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 3654 by Taq
12-04-2019 1:19 PM


Here's the Politico article again
Politico gave evidence. I guess you are denying it?
Message 3099
POLITICO
As I said in that post, Politico published this article back in February of 2017 [it was actually January] about "Ukrainian interference in our election on behalf of HILLARY, not Trump. This is what Trump was asking about in that phone call, more information about THIS Ukrainian corruption, and this is part of the evidence in the ONGOING investigation into interference by the Democrats in that election, by Barr and Horowitz and others I forget."
Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found.
A Ukrainian-American operative who was consulting for the Democratic National Committee met with top officials in the Ukrainian Embassy in Washington in an effort to expose ties between Trump, top campaign aide Paul Manafort and Russia, according to people with direct knowledge of the situation.
The Ukrainian efforts had an impact in the race, helping to force Manafort’s resignation and advancing the narrative that Trump’s campaign was deeply connected to Ukraine’s foe to the east, Russia. But they were far less concerted or centrally directed than Russia’s alleged hacking and dissemination of Democratic emails.
Russia’s effort was personally directed by Russian President Vladimir Putin, involved the country’s military and foreign intelligence services, according to U.S. intelligence officials. They reportedly briefed Trump last week on the possibility that Russian operatives might have compromising information on the president-elect. And at a Senate hearing last week on the hacking, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper said I don't think we've ever encountered a more aggressive or direct campaign to interfere in our election process than we've seen in this case.
There’s little evidence of such a top-down effort by Ukraine. Longtime observers suggest that the rampant corruption, factionalism and economic struggles plaguing the country not to mention its ongoing strife with Russia would render it unable to pull off an ambitious covert interference campaign in another country’s election. And President Petro Poroshenko’s administration, along with the Ukrainian Embassy in Washington, insists that Ukraine stayed neutral in the race.
Yet Politico’s investigation found evidence of Ukrainian government involvement in the race that appears to strain diplomatic protocol dictating that governments refrain from engaging in one another’s elections.
The Ukrainian antipathy for Trump’s team and alignment with Clinton’s can be traced back to late 2013. That’s when the country’s president, Viktor Yanukovych, whom Manafort had been advising, abruptly backed out of a European Union pact linked to anti-corruption reforms. Instead, Yanukovych entered into a multibillion-dollar bailout agreement with Russia, sparking protests across Ukraine and prompting Yanukovych to flee the country to Russia under Putin’s protection.
In the ensuing crisis, Russian troops moved into the Ukrainian territory of Crimea, and Manafort dropped off the radar.
Manafort’s work for Yanukovych caught the attention of a veteran Democratic operative named Alexandra Chalupa, who had worked in the White House Office of Public Liaison during the Clinton administration. Chalupa went on to work as a staffer, then as a consultant, for Democratic National Committee. The DNC paid her $412,000 from 2004 to June 2016, according to Federal Election Commission records, though she also was paid by other clients during that time, including Democratic campaigns and the DNC’s arm for engaging expatriate Democrats around the world.
Edited by Admin, : Clean this up so it's readable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3654 by Taq, posted 12-04-2019 1:19 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3659 by JonF, posted 12-04-2019 4:08 PM Faith has replied
 Message 3661 by Taq, posted 12-04-2019 6:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 3658 of 5796 (867894)
12-04-2019 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3656 by Faith
12-04-2019 2:01 PM


Re: Fact-checking Politico on Faith's favorite article
Golly gosh, "Government officials" you'd use to deny that the Ukraining government itself was behind the interference?
Yes, that's what the article and the evidence indicate.
Despite the fact that the Ukrainian government is reported as having to scramble to make it up to Trump after he won?
Yes.
Nobody is denying Russian interference, but there is no evidence it was for Trump
All 17 US intelligence agencies disagree. From Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections:
quote:
Key Judgments
Russian efforts to influence the 2016 US presidential election represent the most recent expression of Moscow’s longstanding desire to undermine the US-led liberal democratic order, but these activities demonstrated a significant escalation in directness, level of activity, and scope of effort compared to previous operations.
We assess Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US presidential election. Russia’s goals were to undermine public faith in the US democratic process, denigrate Secretary Clinton, and harm her electability and potential presidency. We further assess Putin and the Russian Government developed a clear preference for President-elect Trump. We have high confidence in these judgments.
  • We also assess Putin and the Russian Government aspired to help President-elect Trump’s election chances when possible by discrediting Secretary Clinton and publicly contrasting her unfavorably to him. All three agencies agree with this judgment. CIA and FBI have high confidence in this judgment; NSA has moderate confidence.
  • Moscow’s approach evolved over the course of the campaign based on Russia’s understanding of the electoral prospects of the two main candidates. When it appeared to Moscow that Secretary Clinton was likely to win the election, the Russian influence campaign began to focus more on undermining her future presidency.
  • Further information has come to light since Election Day that, when combined with Russian behavior since early November 2016, increases our confidence in our assessments of Russian motivations and goals.
Moscow’s influence campaign followed a Russian messaging strategy that blends covert intelligence operationssuch as cyber activitywith overt efforts by Russian Government agencies, state-funded media, third-party intermediaries, and paid social media users or trolls. Russia, like its Soviet predecessor, has a history of conducting covert influence campaigns focused on US presidential elections that have used intelligence officers and agents and press placements to disparage candidates perceived as hostile to the Kremlin.
  • Russia’s intelligence services conducted cyber operations against targets associated with the 2016 US presidential election, including targets associated with both major US political parties. We assess with high confidence that Russian military intelligence (General Staff Main Intelligence Directorate or GRU) used the Guccifer 2.0 persona and DCLeaks.com to release US victim data obtained in cyber operations publicly and in exclusives to media outlets and relayed material to WikiLeaks
  • Russian intelligence obtained and maintained access to elements of multiple US state or local electoral boards. DHS assesses that the types of systems Russian actors targeted or compromised were not involved in vote tallying.
  • Russia’s state-run propaganda machine contributed to the influence campaign by serving as a platform for Kremlin messaging to Russian and international audiences.
We assess Moscow will apply lessons learned from its Putin-ordered campaign aimed at the US presidential election to future influence efforts worldwide, including against US allies and their election processes.
{Bold in original, red added}
Paid for legally? That makes it OK to use false information to destroy Trump's campaign?
Some of it has been discredited. Most of it hasn't. At the time none of it had been discredited.
Oh and now it is called "minuscule" evidence for collusion. Well, it's the "evidence" that launched the Mueller investigation.
Nope. The meeting between Papadopoulos and Downer is considered to be the 'spark' that led to the Mueller investigation. The DOJ IG report is due out any day now but we know it concludes that the investigation was justified and properly handled (with one minor exception)
And no other was found by that investigation, just a bunch of connections that were unrelated to the election.
  • Trump was receptive to a Campaign national security adviser’s (George Papadopoulos) pursuit of a back channel to Putin.
  • Kremlin operatives provided the Campaign a preview of the Russian plan to distribute stolen emails.
  • The Trump Campaign chairman and deputy chairman (Paul Manafort and Rick Gates) knowingly shared internal polling data and information on battleground states with a Russian spy; and the Campaign chairman worked with the Russian spy on a pro-Russia peace plan for Ukraine.
  • The Trump Campaign chairman periodically shared internal polling data with the Russian spy with the expectation it would be shared with Putin-linked oligarch, Oleg Deripaska.
  • Trump Campaign chairman Manafort expected Trump’s winning the presidency would mean Deripaska would want to use Manafort to advance Deripaska’s interests in the United States and elsewhere.
  • Trump Tower meeting: (1) On receiving an email offering derogatory information on Clinton coming from a Russian government official, Donald Trump Jr. appears to have accepted that offer; (2) members of the Campaign discussed the Trump Tower meeting beforehand; (3) Donald Trump Jr. told the Russians during the meeting that Trump could revisit the issue of the Magnitsky Act if elected.
  • A Trump Campaign official told the Special Counsel he felt obliged to object to a GOP Platform change on Ukraine because it contradicted Trump’s wishes; however, the investigation did not establish that Gordon was directed by Trump.
  • Russian military hackers may have followed Trump’s July 27, 2016 public statement Russia if you’re listening within hours by targeting Clinton’s personal office for the first time.
  • Trump requested campaign affiliates to get Clinton’s emails, which resulted in an individual apparently acting in coordination with the Campaign claiming to have successfully contacted Russian hackers.
  • The Trump Campaignand Trump personallyappeared to have advanced knowledge of future WikiLeaks releases.
  • The Trump Campaign coordinated campaign-related public communications based on future WikiLeaks releases.
  • Michael Cohen, on behalf of the Trump Organization, brokered a secret deal for a Trump Tower Moscow project directly involving Putin’s inner circle, at least until June 2016.
  • During the presidential transition, Jared Kushner and Eric Prince engaged in secret back channel communications with Russian agents. (1) Kushner suggested to the Russian Ambassador that they use a secure communication line from within the Russian Embassy to speak with Russian Generals; and (2) Prince and Kushner’s friend Rick Gerson conducted secret back channel meetings with a Putin agent to develop a plan for U.S.-Russian relations.
  • During the presidential transition, in coordination with other members of the Transition Team, Michael Flynn spoke with the Russian Ambassador to prevent a tit for tat Russian response to the Obama administration’s imposition of sanctions for election interference; the Russians agreed not to retaliate saying they wanted a good relationship with the incoming administration.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3656 by Faith, posted 12-04-2019 2:01 PM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 3659 of 5796 (867896)
12-04-2019 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 3657 by Faith
12-04-2019 2:49 PM


Re: Here's the Politico article again
All of that concerns activities by individuals except for:
quote:
Yet Politico’s investigation found evidence of Ukrainian government involvement in the race that appears to strain diplomatic protocol dictating that governments refrain from engaging in one another’s elections.
For which they provided no evidence of Ukrainian government involvement. In fact they gave some reason to doubt government involvement:
quote:
There’s little evidence of such a top-down effort by Ukraine. Longtime observers suggest that the rampant corruption, factionalism and economic struggles plaguing the country not to mention its ongoing strife with Russia would render it unable to pull off an ambitious covert interference campaign in another country’s election. And President Petro Poroshenko’s administration, along with the Ukrainian Embassy in Washington, insists that Ukraine stayed neutral in the race.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3657 by Faith, posted 12-04-2019 2:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3660 by Faith, posted 12-04-2019 5:53 PM JonF has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 3660 of 5796 (867904)
12-04-2019 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 3659 by JonF
12-04-2019 4:08 PM


Re: Here's the Politico article again
OK you are going to make government representatives into mere individuals, you are going to keep on supporting the Left in all their lying corruption, their claims that Trump did what their own actually did, Biden's actual quid pro quo for personal gain, not in the nation's interest, Clinton's actual obstruction of justice. Trump has done neither. This is the most disgustingly devious stuff this country has ever seen. I hope all this gets exposed and criminally prosecuted.
Please, Lord God, bring out ALL the truth and make even the Democrats open their eyes to it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3659 by JonF, posted 12-04-2019 4:08 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3666 by JonF, posted 12-05-2019 9:26 AM Faith has not replied

  
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