Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 73 (8962 total)
125 online now:
Coragyps, DrJones*, Hyroglyphx, jar, PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat), Theodoric (7 members, 118 visitors)
Newest Member: Samuel567
Post Volume: Total: 871,047 Year: 2,795/23,288 Month: 986/1,809 Week: 105/313 Day: 22/39 Hour: 1/5


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Right Side of the News (renamed)
Percy
Member
Posts: 19426
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 4906 of 5056 (871554)
02-05-2020 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4901 by Theodoric
02-05-2020 8:21 AM


Re: CBO Proejcts Trump Trillion Dollar Deficits to Continue Indefinitely
Theodoric writes:

Are you not the person that said?

I don't see how that relates to corporate tax rates.

You still seem unable to grasp the concept.

Thanks for your time.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4901 by Theodoric, posted 02-05-2020 8:21 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4910 by Theodoric, posted 02-05-2020 3:50 PM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19426
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 4907 of 5056 (871555)
02-05-2020 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 4905 by RAZD
02-05-2020 11:21 AM


Re: Heritage Foundation Senior Analyst on the deficit and Natoinal Debt
RAZD writes:

God I loved that limit, but you might be right. Has anyone done the calculation to make sure that's sufficient to fix the problem? Or maybe the limit only has to be raised instead of eliminated.

Why should anyone be exempt privileged?

If you're asking why should Social Security deductions should be capped, it's because Social Security benefits are capped.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4905 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2020 11:21 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4911 by Theodoric, posted 02-05-2020 3:56 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 4914 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2020 5:10 PM Percy has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5950
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 4908 of 5056 (871561)
02-05-2020 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 4899 by Percy
02-05-2020 8:08 AM


Re: Heritage Foundation Senior Analyst on the deficit and Natoinal Debt
Faith has beliefs that come from within. No process of convincing is involved. Anyone who expresses opinions she agrees with is right because they are honest and truthful, and those expressing opinions she disagrees with are wrong because they are lying leftists who belong in prison.

I would have liked to think that she be persuaded, if nothing else, to at least tone down her fervor. I'm not looking to change her political or religious beliefs, but just to heal her from her feral suspicion of anything outside of that narrow view.

It is also possible to be sincerely wrong while constructively engaging in discussion.

Completely agree. I just meant to say that I don't believe she's a troll... if she is, wow, masterful catfish. But I think these are sincere beliefs she has.

We shouldn't normalize (by judging it acceptable) the behavior of people like Faith or Trump.

I suppose so... I don't know if its a complimentary or if its deleterious, but she has remained remarkably consistent throughout the years. From the outside looking in it looks like intransigent egoism to be that stubborn. She probably views it as an asset to prove her unshakeable faith.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4899 by Percy, posted 02-05-2020 8:08 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5950
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 4909 of 5056 (871563)
02-05-2020 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 4902 by Percy
02-05-2020 8:53 AM


I thought of a possibility where you might have picked up this idea and have confirmed it online. Changes to Social Security law in 1950 made it possible for members of some groups previously excluded to voluntarily opt in. Examples are government employees and members of non-profit firms. See The High Cost of Good Intentions (the link opens on the correct page, it's in the last full paragraph).

I think you're right... Having been mystified by it I looked into it a little more and found an old lecture by Milton Friedman. He mentioned this and I'm pretty sure I saw the same video years ago, although I think I misunderstood it at the time to mean it was always designed to be an opt-in program versus a compulsory tax when in reality it was simply to include people previously not included.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4902 by Percy, posted 02-05-2020 8:53 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7043
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 4910 of 5056 (871564)
02-05-2020 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 4906 by Percy
02-05-2020 12:59 PM


Re: CBO Proejcts Trump Trillion Dollar Deficits to Continue Indefinitely
I tried multiple times to explain in a way that was straightforward and I thought reasonable. I am not sure where the disconnect is. Your previous post showed a complete lack of understanding of my argument.

I am unsure how to explain the economics in a way you an understand.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4906 by Percy, posted 02-05-2020 12:59 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4916 by Percy, posted 02-06-2020 7:37 AM Theodoric has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7043
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 4911 of 5056 (871565)
02-05-2020 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 4907 by Percy
02-05-2020 1:04 PM


Re: Heritage Foundation Senior Analyst on the deficit and Natoinal Debt
Because it's name shows it's purpose. Social Security not Individual Security. The wealthy are much more able and have much more opportunity to invest for retirement. Options and abilities that the vast majority of US citizens do not. Thus, Social Security, not Individual Security.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4907 by Percy, posted 02-05-2020 1:04 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20548
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 4912 of 5056 (871568)
02-05-2020 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 4904 by Percy
02-05-2020 11:20 AM


Re: Paying down the National Debt, improving society[qs]
It's isn't as simple as you think. Money paid for operating expenses isn't taxable, but money paid to expand the business is. Corporations can't make profits go away by investing in their business, something I just learned, which means I have to modify some of my response to Theodoric. Profits used to expand the business or purchase other companies are still profits.

Companies that diminish their profits by increasing employee compensation may find that they're both diminishing their competitiveness within their industry and foregoing opportunities for expansion of the business.

Companies that pay dividends will be discouraged from reducing profits, since dividends are paid out of profits.

So pumping money into offshore accounts ...

But what happens to "culture, creativity and wellbeing" when there's insufficient income for food and shelter?

It suffers unless there are other transactions (barter)

Put another way, as unemployment drops the competition for employees increases, thereby increasing wages, which increases business costs, which causes them to raise prices, which increases inflation thereby diminishing the value of the increased wages, etc., possibly setting off an inflationary spiral. ...

Not so cut and dry, as this is GOP talking point against minimum wages. What happens is that workers have more to spend so demand increases, increasing demand for workers to meet production needs. If late the problem has been overproduction and stalled demand because people were not spending.

And I think I do understand your point. There is a discernible element of "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" in your viewpoint.

Maybe, I am a Democratic Socialist, but my basic position can be stated simply:

First - those who benefit most from the economy that is supported by the government should (happily) pay more in taxes to support that government.

Second - all people should get equal care for stochastic events/diseases, etc and nobody should make a profit off the misery of another. Thus insurance and healthcare should be non-profit.

Third - basic living needs of all people should be met. The measure of a civilization is not how many millionaires exist, but how few starving children exist.

Abe ... & education for all through community college or trade schools. /Abe

I don't think it does. I made lifelong friendships while working that are a meaningful part of my life. I still have at least annual get togethers with people I met at work in 1980. I just now confirmed a lunch with friends from the company I retired from five years ago. Our human side doesn't disappear while working.

How many friends are from outside work, and isn’t that a narrow spectrum of people?

I'm racking my brain here for a ne'er-do-well who didn't work, but I can't think of one. I know they exist, I just don't happen to know any.

van Gogh

Is capitalism antithetical to cultural values?

The purpose of unchecked capitalism is to make few people rich and many people poor.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : Per Jar


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4904 by Percy, posted 02-05-2020 11:20 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4913 by jar, posted 02-05-2020 4:59 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 4917 by Percy, posted 02-06-2020 8:34 AM RAZD has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32167
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(4)
Message 4913 of 5056 (871569)
02-05-2020 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4912 by RAZD
02-05-2020 4:55 PM


Re: Paying down the National Debt, improving society[qs]
RAZD writes:

Thus insurance and healthcare should be non-profit.

And education!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4912 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2020 4:55 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4915 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2020 5:19 PM jar has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20548
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 4914 of 5056 (871571)
02-05-2020 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 4907 by Percy
02-05-2020 1:04 PM


Re: Heritage Foundation Senior Analyst on the deficit and Natoinal Debt
Why should anyone be exempt privileged?

If you're asking why should Social Security deductions should be capped, it's because Social Security benefits are capped.

So? The intent was to provide a living income to retired people. Logically that should be available to all, regardless of how much they make. One amount applicable to all retired workers, spouses of retired workers (esp those who never worked in the $$ economy), disabled etc. Wrap all social assistance into one package.

For instance Faith says she gets $464/mo iirc. I get over $1000 (less than the maximum due to years worked in Canada). But I also have a comfortable income from investments I have made, so I use the SS to pay off a debt.

That doesn’t seem like the intent is fulfilled.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : ..

Edited by RAZD, : Stupid spell check picking wrong words


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4907 by Percy, posted 02-05-2020 1:04 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4919 by Percy, posted 02-06-2020 8:47 AM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20548
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 4915 of 5056 (871572)
02-05-2020 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 4913 by jar
02-05-2020 4:59 PM


Re: Paying down the National Debt, improving society[qs]
Considered adding that, but went for brevity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4913 by jar, posted 02-05-2020 4:59 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19426
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 4916 of 5056 (871591)
02-06-2020 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 4910 by Theodoric
02-05-2020 3:50 PM


Re: CBO Proejcts Trump Trillion Dollar Deficits to Continue Indefinitely
Theodoric writes:

I tried multiple times to explain in a way that was straightforward and I thought reasonable.

When did "once" become multiple times?

I am unsure how to explain the economics in a way you can understand.

Maybe you just haven't found the right insult yet. Insults hint that being right may have taken priority over discussion and developing a mutual understanding.

I'm a fiscal conservative, so it makes sense we disagree. We exchanged messages (me: Message 4800, you: Message 4810, me: Message 4869), I thought we would just hash through the issue to reach a mutual understanding, then you went another way (Message 4872 followed by Message 4901). It feels like further discussion is unlikely to be constructive.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4910 by Theodoric, posted 02-05-2020 3:50 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4918 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2020 8:41 AM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19426
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 4917 of 5056 (871592)
02-06-2020 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 4912 by RAZD
02-05-2020 4:55 PM


Re: Paying down the National Debt, improving society[qs]
RAZD writes:

So pumping money into offshore accounts ...

Not sure how this is relevant to what you quoted from me. Unless a corporation is illegally hiding money, the ultimate destination of any cash is unrelated to its exposure to tax laws.

Not so cut and dry,...

True of much in economics.

...as this is GOP talking point against minimum wages.

I wasn't referring to the minimum wage. Wages increasing generally across the board as in an overheated economy is much more impactful on inflation than minimum wage increases.

We need to increase minimum wages because they've fallen behind inflation. The minimum wage in 1968 was $1.50/hour, which in today's dollars is $11.08. Teenage workers still in high school have largely fallen off the map, so there's a strong argument that the minimum wage should be higher than it was in 1968. Somewhere in the general neighborhood of $15/hour seems reasonable.

What happens is that workers have more to spend so demand increases, increasing demand for workers to meet production needs. Of late the problem has been overproduction and stalled demand because people were not spending.

But you can't leave inflation out of the equation. Increased worker salaries mean that businesses must raise prices.

Maybe, I am a Democratic Socialist, but my basic position can be stated simply:

First - those who benefit most from the economy that is supported by the government should (happily) pay more in taxes to support that government.

Second - all people should get equal care for stochastic events/diseases, etc and nobody should make a profit off the misery of another. Thus insurance and healthcare should be non-profit.

Third - basic living needs of all people should be met. The measure of a civilization is not how many millionaires exist, but how few starving children exist.

We agree on all this.

How many friends are from outside work, and isn’t that a narrow spectrum of people?

For the sake of discussion let's say my circle of friends is work dominated and very homogenous. How is that a bad thing? Doesn't that still reinforce my point that there is a richness to work in the people you work with that goes way beyond just the work itself?

I'm racking my brain here for a ne'er-do-well who didn't work, but I can't think of one. I know they exist, I just don't happen to know any.

van Gogh

I meant among people I know.

Is capitalism antithetical to cultural values?

The purpose of unchecked capitalism is to make few people rich and many people poor.

Yeah, sure, when I said "capitalism" I really meant "unchecked capitalism."

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Typo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4912 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2020 4:55 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4935 by RAZD, posted 02-07-2020 12:30 PM Percy has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7043
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 4918 of 5056 (871593)
02-06-2020 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 4916 by Percy
02-06-2020 7:37 AM


Re: CBO Proejcts Trump Trillion Dollar Deficits to Continue Indefinitely
I'm a fiscal conservative,

Doesn't explain why you are unable to understand the concept that lower taxes do not promote corporate reinvestment, while in fact they tend to promote less corporate investment. Actually, higher taxes on corporations and individuals promote corporate reinvestment in order to keep excess profits from being payed in taxes. This is born out by looking at historical tax levels and comparing them to growth in the post war years and comparing the same to the post Reagan years. Your posts have shown a total lack of understanding of the basic concept. It is not just that you don't agree, but your posts show that you don't even understand the concept of what I have stated, yes, multiple times.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4916 by Percy, posted 02-06-2020 7:37 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4920 by Percy, posted 02-06-2020 8:48 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19426
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 4919 of 5056 (871594)
02-06-2020 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 4914 by RAZD
02-05-2020 5:10 PM


Re: Heritage Foundation Senior Analyst on the deficit and Natoinal Debt
RAZD writes:

So? The intent was to provide a living income to retired people.

If you mean the original intent back in 1934, no, that wasn't the intent then. If you mean what the intent should be today, I think that's an admirable goal, and I hope it's something we can figure out how to achieve.

Logically that should be available to all, regardless of how much they make.

Agreed.

One amount applicable to all retired workers, spouses of retired workers (esp those who never worked in the $$ economy), disabled etc.

There are significant regional differences in cost of living and of healthcare.

Wrap all social assistance into one package.

If it can be done then that would be great, but personally I don't think this kind of simplicity is possible.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4914 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2020 5:10 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4952 by RAZD, posted 02-09-2020 10:43 AM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19426
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 4920 of 5056 (871595)
02-06-2020 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 4918 by Theodoric
02-06-2020 8:41 AM


Re: CBO Proejcts Trump Trillion Dollar Deficits to Continue Indefinitely
Theodoric writes:

Doesn't explain why you are unable to understand...

Thank you for your time.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4918 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2020 8:41 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020