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Author Topic:   The Right Side of the News (formerly In the News)
Percy
Member
Posts: 18872
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 961 of 3011 (848324)
02-03-2019 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 945 by Faith
02-03-2019 5:02 AM


Re: voter fraud
Faith writes:

Leftist propaganda.

If you think it's leftist propaganda that no evidence of meaningful voter fraud has been uncovered, all you have to do to prove it is provide the evidence. But you can't do that, can you.

It's also not leftist propaganda that Trump started a commission to prove that he had not lost the popular vote, nor that it is just another instance of his neediness.

It's also not leftist propaganda that none of the right-wing rumors panned out.

It's also not leftist propaganda that you reject evidence, not to mention never provide any evidence for any of your outlandish claims.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 945 by Faith, posted 02-03-2019 5:02 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3768
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 962 of 3011 (848326)
02-03-2019 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 943 by Faith
02-03-2019 1:40 AM


Re: voter fraud
One of the most frustrating things about you is how you have no idea how anything works, much like your Beloved Leader.

But there were many precincts across the country, including in my own state, where somehow ballots kept magically appearing well after the polls were closed, even truckloads of them, that turned a Republican victory into a Democratic victory. These ballots were accepted as valid despite passed deadlines and all sorts of other red flags, and miracle of miracles, they ALL overturned a Republican victory established at poll closing time, by whatever necessary thousands of votes were needed to make the Leftist the winner in the end.

First, you need to learn about the mechanics of ballot collection and counting, the different kinds of ballots and how they are processed (ie, how they affect the mechanics of ballot collection and counting), and the demographics of who tends to use what kinds ballots.

Here is what an old friend from church posted on Facebook explaining why it is that in a close election the more we look into mail-in and provisional ballots the votes seem to change. It's because of the order in which the different kinds of ballots are counted and who is more likely to use those different ballots.

BTW, an MSNBC correspondant was at the election center in Santa Ana as the ballots came in. A van would arrive with a voting machine in a case (I assume the one that the booths' machines were connected to). The chip from that machine would be removed and conveyed via pneumatic tube to a central tabulator. All this was done under the direct observation of sheriff deputies who all acted very seriously as they very well should. Here's the link to the MSNBC live video of the process and the incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80ZIhk1trc4 -- and after tripping the alarm he runs away trying to look as innocent as possible. It's a hoot.

Here is my friend's Facebook post explaining the returns in Orange County, Calif. (OC):

quote:
Here's the procedure in OC. The mail-in ballots that are received early are counted before election day, though the mail-in totals are not revealed. Those totals, plus the votes cast at early voting centers, are the ones that are posted a few minutes after the polls close.

After that the trucks begin to arrive at the ROV in Santa Ana. The trucks bring the voting machines and paper ballots that were turned in at polling places. As the voting machines come into the ROV, their results are added to the posted results. On election day, the OC ROV generally updates every hour (9 pm, 10 pm, etc.) I think they stop at midnight or 1 am, or perhaps when the last voting machine from the last truck arrives.

The next day the OC ROV does something that's somewhat unique among county registrars. The OC ROV staff looks at close races -- ones in which the uncounted paper/provisional ballots could make a difference to the final outcome. They sort through the paper/provisional ballots and begin inspecting and counting those ballots first.

Meanwhile, candidates in close races start forming teams of attorneys and volunteer monitors. Those monitors go to the office of the OC ROV and watch the inspection and tallying of uncounted provisional and absentee ballots to make sure the process is fair. Signatures are compared with the signature on the original registration form, for example, before the ballot is counted.

Each staff person who is doing inspections is watched by at least one monitor from each campaign. If a ballot is challenged by one of the monitors, it is set aside for later consideration (probably by the candidates' legal teams, but frankly I don't know how this part of the process works).

I've participated as a volunteer in 2 or 3 elections. It is a fascinating process, and scrupulously fair. Each team is treated equally, and each team is given respect and dignity. If you ever have the chance to volunteer to be a monitor, do so! You won't regret it.

There are a couple of reasons the pattern is not consistent among the various groups of ballots being counted. One thing that happens occasionally is that there's a damaging hit piece or damaging piece of news late in the campaign. That can result in the early ballots being rather dramatically different than the day-of and late ballots.

But the more common reason is that the 3 groups of voters (early mail-ins, polling place, and late mail-ins/provisionals) tend to be demographically different. Early mail-ins tend to be the most well-off, oldest, and most conservative. Polling place voters are, on average, somewhat less well-off, younger, and less conservative. Late mail-ins and provisionals are the least well-off, youngest, and least conservative.

Of course these are generalizations -- for example, plenty of young liberals vote early and by mail. But *on* *average* this is a picture of the voting habits of Californians today, and it's why Democratic candidates start to pull ahead in close races as the counting continues.


Being a veteran, I would point out that military members serving away from home (ie, just about every single military member) use mail-in absentee ballots whose validity is based on the postmark. There would naturally be a delay of a couple days for those to arrive, then on top of that you'd have the time it takes to process, verify, and tally them.

The bottom line is and must be that every vote must count!

That many dead people voted for Democrats in other elections, ...

snopes.com results for "dead people voting": https://www.snopes.com/?s=dead+people+voting. Three hits were pertinent, including one claiming that an NPR study had reported that 25 million fraudulent ballots had been cast for Hillary. All three claims proved to be false. There is also an article about a 21-year-old Virginia man who had fraudulently registered dead people; despite Republican claims that they had been registered as Democrats, Virginia does not include party affiliation when you register to vote.

What makes this kind of story appealing for you alt-righters are the old stories from half a century ago out of Cook County, IL, of dead people being registered to vote.

... , and many people voted more than once at different precincts, are often mentioned too, ...

snopes.com results for "people registered in different precincts": https://www.snopes.com/?s=dead+people+voting. The single hit, "Does This List Prove Voter Fraud in 2012?", shows the claim to be false.

snopes.com results for "people voting twice": https://www.snopes.com/?s=dead+people+voting. Only one pertinent hit also proved to be false.

And I can't prove the many rumors of illegal aliens voting either.

But surely you can at least tell us how that could even happen, especially in the large numbers that those rumors usually cite. How is that supposed to even work? We keep asking you to explain that and you keep avoiding the question.

... , and I don't know why this stuff isn't prosecuted.

It is prosecuted, but only when it actually does happen

Most of these rumors that you cite have their origins in problems with the records kept by registrars. Those issues must be looked into that the system of voter registration must be perfected.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 943 by Faith, posted 02-03-2019 1:40 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 963 by Faith, posted 02-03-2019 1:42 PM dwise1 has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33290
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 963 of 3011 (848327)
02-03-2019 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 962 by dwise1
02-03-2019 1:32 PM


Re: voter fraud
I know about the different categories of ballots. But they are supposed to be subject to deadlines after which late comers are to be discarded. They are supposed to be subjected to an immediate count before the vote tally is made, and that count must be the count they end up with, so it acts as a safeguard. But many such counts were not made within the deadline and that made it possible for bogus ballots to be added to the total when they shouldn't have been.

But the main source of suspicion is the fact that so many Republicans were clearly the winners before other ballots showed up making Democrats the winners. ALL Rep to Dem. If you address that in your long post I'm going to miss it unless you quote it for me.

Yes, go ahead and lambast me again, and again and again. Not interested.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 962 by dwise1, posted 02-03-2019 1:32 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 968 by JonF, posted 02-03-2019 2:58 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 969 by Percy, posted 02-03-2019 3:25 PM Faith has responded
 Message 970 by dwise1, posted 02-03-2019 7:04 PM Faith has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18872
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 964 of 3011 (848328)
02-03-2019 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 953 by AZPaul3
02-03-2019 9:31 AM


Re: The Deal to Reopen the Government is Still a Bad One for America
AZPaul3 writes:

The river is already a physical barrier.

But, you know, those little brown people can swim. Even the kids.

This portion of the wall needs to be more of a moat type thing ... with piranhas, backstopped by high barbed-wire fencing and gun towers. Maybe some land mines.

And I bet they have boats, too!

For Faith's sake I'll just to repeat what I said in an earlier post. The reason there's so little wall along the Rio Grande is because it is already a physical barrier where the Border Patrol uses boats and roads alongside the river. If there are places where the experts think they need walls or fences then that's fine. Just blindly building 240 miles of wall somewhere along the Rio Grande will be an access, economic and ecological disaster. The Rio Grande is probably somewhere around 1000 miles long in Texas, so Trump is proposing destroying 25%.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 953 by AZPaul3, posted 02-03-2019 9:31 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 965 by Faith, posted 02-03-2019 1:50 PM Percy has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33290
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 965 of 3011 (848329)
02-03-2019 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 964 by Percy
02-03-2019 1:42 PM


Re: The Deal to Reopen the Government is Still a Bad One for America
I don't care about any particular segment of the border, Rio Grande or whatnot, the point is to use the kind of barrier that works where it is needed and there are plenty of places according to the Border Patrol where a wall is needed and maybe some of that includes sections of the Rio Grande. Stop trying to second guess all this. You don't know what's needed where.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 964 by Percy, posted 02-03-2019 1:42 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 967 by Percy, posted 02-03-2019 2:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18872
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 966 of 3011 (848331)
02-03-2019 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 960 by Faith
02-03-2019 1:22 PM


Re: Senate Resolution to Condemn Trump on Foreign Policy
Faith writes:

The map changes with every election so I'm not sure what you think you are proving. Most of the red could be blue in a particular election.

Huh? I described exactly what I was using the map to show. In the 2016 election it was mostly the rural states that went for Trump. It makes the point that in area the vast majority of the country is rural. I even said exactly this immediately after the electoral map image: "In area probably over 90% of American territory is rural and small towns,..." How can you say, "I'm not sure what you think you are proving"? I'm proving the rather obvious: that a great deal of America is very empty.

Just for comparison so you can understand the point better, here are the population densities of several areas of the country:

PlacePopulation Density
people per square mile
Montana7
Nevada26
California246
Waterbury, CT3,800
Manhattan67,000

The rural and small town regions of America face very different economic challenges than urban and suburban areas, which was the further point I made.

Social liberalism is the core of Leftist/Marxist politics, the economic stuff of your fiscal conservatism isn't very relevant.

The people on the left in Congress and in state legislatures are no more Marxist than those on the right are fascists. I asked you once before and I'll ask you again, please name any Marxists in Congress or in state legislatures. We're talking about thousands of people, so surely you can find at least a couple.

Yes the Tea Party was originally concerned with economics but I for one and many others took it as a broad representation of our political interests.

No, I didn't say that "the Tea Party was originally concerned with economics," and I think it is inaccurate to say that. I think it gives a false impression of the forces behind the Tea Party's formation, which rose out of frustration experienced in rural and small town regions at not just lack of inclusion in the economic growth and improvements in opportunity of the rest of the country, but also at the perceived threats to their values and way of life. The Tea Party that emerged was an attempt to counter these perceived threats.

Abortion is murder.

Abortion is not murder, and taking away a woman's right to control her own body is fascism.

Enough.

You always lie that your through, then you're back again in no time.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 960 by Faith, posted 02-03-2019 1:22 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18872
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 967 of 3011 (848332)
02-03-2019 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 965 by Faith
02-03-2019 1:50 PM


Re: The Deal to Reopen the Government is Still a Bad One for America
Faith writes:

I don't care about any particular segment of the border, Rio Grande or whatnot,...

It's obvious that you don't care about access, economics or ecology. That's why you're so uninformed.

...the point is to use the kind of barrier that works where it is needed...

I have said the exact same thing many times.

...and there are plenty of places according to the Border Patrol where a wall is needed...

Please show us the Border Patrol saying where and why a wall is needed along the Rio Grande.

...and maybe some of that includes sections of the Rio Grande.

You never looked at the link to the map, did you. Please look at it now: USA Today's US/Mexico border map. Too white for you? Then you'll just have to take my word that the US/Mexico border is almost completely walled or fenced over its entire length, except for the Rio Grande, which by itself already represents a physical border. The only place where 240 miles of wall could possibly be built is along the Rio Grande. That it would be built along the Rio Grande is why a group of Republican Congressmen are visiting the border in Texas rather than in New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada or California.

So any new wall would be built along the Rio Grande. Please explain why a wall is needed in addition to a river.

Stop trying to second guess all this. You don't know what's needed where.

But I'm willing to listen. Please explain why a wall is needed in addition to a river.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Typo, grammar.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 965 by Faith, posted 02-03-2019 1:50 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 5527
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 968 of 3011 (848334)
02-03-2019 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 963 by Faith
02-03-2019 1:42 PM


Re: voter fraud
Name two of the Republicans that lost in that manner, and when did it appear they had won.

You couldn't even if you wanted to. Because it's just another right-wing lie.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 963 by Faith, posted 02-03-2019 1:42 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18872
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 969 of 3011 (848336)
02-03-2019 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 963 by Faith
02-03-2019 1:42 PM


Re: voter fraud
Faith writes:

I know about the different categories of ballots.

No you don't. You proved you have no idea when you said, "But there were many precincts across the country, including in my own state, where somehow ballots kept magically appearing well after the polls were closed, even truckloads of them,..."

As I explained in Message 959, though it isn't clear what you mean there is no interpretation one can make whereby you're raising some reasonable complaint.

But they are supposed to be subject to deadlines after which late comers are to be discarded.

What late comers? You mean people late to the polls? Their votes can't be discarded because they never got to vote. Other than people late to the polls there are no deadlines for ballots to be delivered to counting centers. Usually at least a week is set aside for counting ballots.

They are supposed to be subjected to an immediate count before the vote tally is made,...

Well, sure. It makes sense that the count begin as soon after the polls close as possible, and naturally the count must conclude before there can be a tally. Since numbers come in by precinct, winners can often be projected long before the final tally.

...and that count must be the count they end up with,...

Why do you say this? Sometimes there's a recount, usually because an election is close. When the election is very, very close then they might do a manual recount.

But many such counts were not made within the deadline...

Ah, so you are talking about the counting deadline. Broward county missed the Florida Senate race recount deadline, completely unrelated to the presidential election. Which precincts can you name that missed the counting deadline in the presidential election, or any other race you're concerned about?

...and that made it possible for bogus ballots to be added to the total when they shouldn't have been.

Again, which precincts missed the deadline, and given that the ballots are guarded and under lock and key, how do you propose bogus ballots would be added, and once you tell us how they did it, then tell us where this actually happened and how you know. Otherwise we know you're just making things up again.

But the main source of suspicion is the fact that so many Republicans were clearly the winners before other ballots showed up making Democrats the winners. ALL Rep to Dem.

There were some close races, but in all statewide elections the arrival of precinct results are spread out over time. Are there any particular races you have in mind?

If you address that in your long post I'm going to miss it unless you quote it for me.

Ah, the truth comes out. You don't read long posts. No wonder you keep repeating the same mistakes.

Yes, go ahead and lambast me again, and again and again. Not interested.

If you don't like being lambasted then say things that are true.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Fix poor phrasing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 963 by Faith, posted 02-03-2019 1:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 972 by Faith, posted 02-03-2019 8:15 PM Percy has responded

    
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3768
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 970 of 3011 (848351)
02-03-2019 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 963 by Faith
02-03-2019 1:42 PM


Re: voter fraud
I know about the different categories of ballots.

Well, it is quite obvious that you don't. For that matter, I don't even think you read any part of my message.

But they are supposed to be subject to deadlines after which late comers are to be discarded.

So then what part of the following did you not understand?:

quote:
Here's the procedure in OC. The mail-in ballots that are received early are counted before election day, though the mail-in totals are not revealed. Those totals, plus the votes cast at early voting centers, are the ones that are posted a few minutes after the polls close.
After that the trucks begin to arrive at the ROV in Santa Ana. The trucks bring the voting machines and paper ballots that were turned in at polling places. As the voting machines come into the ROV, their results are added to the posted results. On election day, the OC ROV generally updates every hour (9 pm, 10 pm, etc.) I think they stop at midnight or 1 am, or perhaps when the last voting machine from the last truck arrives.

The next day the OC ROV does something that's somewhat unique among county registrars. The OC ROV staff looks at close races -- ones in which the uncounted paper/provisional ballots could make a difference to the final outcome. They sort through the paper/provisional ballots and begin inspecting and counting those ballots first.

Meanwhile, candidates in close races start forming teams of attorneys and volunteer monitors. Those monitors go to the office of the OC ROV and watch the inspection and tallying of uncounted provisional and absentee ballots to make sure the process is fair. Signatures are compared with the signature on the original registration form, for example, before the ballot is counted.


Plus my point about absentee ballots, the type most likely to be used by military members, taking days to arrive if they had been mailed and processed by the US Post Office by Election Day (as determined by their postmark):

DWise1 writes:

Being a veteran, I would point out that military members serving away from home (ie, just about every single military member) use mail-in absentee ballots whose validity is based on the postmark. There would naturally be a delay of a couple days for those to arrive, then on top of that you'd have the time it takes to process, verify, and tally them.

What part of that did you not understand?

But the main source of suspicion is the fact that so many Republicans were clearly the winners before other ballots showed up making Democrats the winners. ALL Rep to Dem. If you address that in your long post I'm going to miss it unless you quote it for me.

I already quoted it for you and for everybody else! If you refuse to read, then you are just committing willful stupidity.

Again! (sheesh!):

quote:
But the more common reason is that the 3 groups of voters (early mail-ins, polling place, and late mail-ins/provisionals) tend to be demographically different. Early mail-ins tend to be the most well-off, oldest, and most conservative. Polling place voters are, on average, somewhat less well-off, younger, and less conservative. Late mail-ins and provisionals are the least well-off, youngest, and least conservative.

Of course these are generalizations -- for example, plenty of young liberals vote early and by mail. But *on* *average* this is a picture of the voting habits of Californians today, and it's why Democratic candidates start to pull ahead in close races as the counting continues.


So what part of that did you not understand.

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot. You had never bothered to read it in the first place!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 963 by Faith, posted 02-03-2019 1:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 973 by Faith, posted 02-03-2019 8:17 PM dwise1 has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4640
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 971 of 3011 (848355)
02-03-2019 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 958 by dwise1
02-03-2019 12:27 PM


Re: The Deal to Reopen the Government is Still a Bad One for America
it would have to be heavily manned along its entire length at an even greater cost than for the wall itself, a cost that would never end.

You know they would contract that out to the private sector ... who would hire in cheap illegals to man the positions.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 958 by dwise1, posted 02-03-2019 12:27 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 980 by dwise1, posted 02-03-2019 9:17 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33290
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 972 of 3011 (848356)
02-03-2019 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 969 by Percy
02-03-2019 3:25 PM


Re: voter fraud
It is so frustrating to try to deal with someone like you who can't follow a logical sequence so is always blaming me for your own stupidity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 969 by Percy, posted 02-03-2019 3:25 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 994 by Percy, posted 02-04-2019 12:10 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33290
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 973 of 3011 (848357)
02-03-2019 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 970 by dwise1
02-03-2019 7:04 PM


Re: voter fraud
Wasn't I clear? I didn't read your post. There are too many of you heaping posts that are too long on me and end up saying nothing anyway. Sorry, I don't even try any more.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 970 by dwise1, posted 02-03-2019 7:04 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 974 by AZPaul3, posted 02-03-2019 8:23 PM Faith has responded
 Message 976 by Theodoric, posted 02-03-2019 8:46 PM Faith has responded
 Message 982 by dwise1, posted 02-03-2019 9:27 PM Faith has responded
 Message 995 by Percy, posted 02-04-2019 12:13 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4640
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 974 of 3011 (848359)
02-03-2019 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 973 by Faith
02-03-2019 8:17 PM


Re: voter fraud
If not Pink Floyd how about Simon & Garfunckel?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 973 by Faith, posted 02-03-2019 8:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 975 by Faith, posted 02-03-2019 8:43 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33290
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 975 of 3011 (848362)
02-03-2019 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 974 by AZPaul3
02-03-2019 8:23 PM


Re: voter fraud
?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 974 by AZPaul3, posted 02-03-2019 8:23 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 978 by AZPaul3, posted 02-03-2019 9:01 PM Faith has responded

    
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