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Author Topic:   Is Tithing an ancient Israelite law ALONE or is it a post-Easter law too?
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 3 of 54 (840181)
09-24-2018 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
09-23-2018 8:35 PM


What LNA Believes
LNA writes:

As a non Christian, who studies scripture, I have had a fair amount of experience with reading fundamentalist Protestant sites. I have come across the CRI before.

I find twisting of scripture to be common on this site (a typical feature of both fundamentalist Protestants and Roman Catholics who find the actual Jesus, Paul, and James to be irrelevant to their modern readings).

Just out of curiosity, do you even believe in God? What would you classify your belief as, if not Christian?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-23-2018 8:35 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-24-2018 10:08 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 8 of 54 (840224)
09-25-2018 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
09-25-2018 11:52 AM


Re: What LNA Believes (about religions). I believe we should have a chance to "know God"
ringo writes:

The fact that you have to make up non-Biblical garbage like "the Fall" and "original sin" to create the illusion of a theme does more damage to your cause than the nitpicking.

We didn't make it up though. It has been part of dogma for centuries. What makes the vast body of apologists, preachers, teachers, and laymen willfully deluded? Are they in fact deluded or is it that you don't have an understanding of the necessity to know the messenger behind the basic message? Why is it that you avoid the leap of faith by continually asking how this is done?

Edited by Phat, :


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 09-25-2018 11:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 12:02 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 9 of 54 (840232)
09-26-2018 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by LamarkNewAge
09-24-2018 10:08 PM


Who Do You Say That I Am?
After googling your link on the Church Of The East I found myself examining Nestorianism and Christology. Tangle may rightly claim that all of this was "made up" but I would argue that they had to have some belief and inner passion with which to fuel these debates...they certainly were not simply competing for marketing share, after all.

Some interesting quotes from the Wiki articles:

Christology writes:

Most Christians identified Jesus as divine from a very early period, although holding a variety of competing views as to what exactly this implied.[49] Early Christian views tended to see Jesus as a unique agent of God;[50] by the Council of Nicaea in 325 he was identified as God in the fullest sense, being 'of the same substance, essence or being'.(...)A foremost contribution to the Christology of the Apostolic Age is that of Paul. The central Christology of Paul conveys the notion of Christ's pre-existence[30] and the identification of Christ as Kyrios.[6] The Pauline epistles use Kyrios to identify Jesus almost 230 times and express the theme that the true mark of a Christian is the confession of Jesus as the true Lord.[31] Paul viewed the superiority of the Christian revelation over all other divine manifestations as a consequence of the fact that Christ is the Son of God.[5] Nevertheless, the view that it was the apostle Paul who introduced the idea that Jesus was divine and thus distorted the actual Jesus has been rejected by some historians. Richard Bauckham argues that Paul was not so influential that he could have invented the central doctrine of Christianity. Before his active missionary work, there were already groups of Christians across the region. For example, a large group already existed in Rome even before Paul visited the place. The earliest centre of Christianity was the twelve apostles in Jerusalem. Paul himself consulted and sought guidance from the Christian leaders in Jerusalem (Galatians 2:1-2; Acts 9:26-28, 15:2). “What was common to the whole Christian movement derived from Jerusalem, not from Paul, and Paul himself derived the central message he preached from the Jerusalem apostles.[32] These scholars argue that if Jesus himself did not claim and show himself to be truly divine (i.e. on the Creator side of the Creator–creature divide), the earliest Christian leaders who were devout ancient monotheistic Jews would not have come to a widespread agreement that he was truly divine, but would have regarded Jesus as merely a teacher or a prophet instead.[33]

Thus I can see that this whole debate over Jesus being "only human" while on earth or whether there was, in fact, a Hypostatic Union between the Divine and Human has been going on long before jar and I found EvC. If humans do simply make this stuff up they expend a lot of time, effort, livelihood and passion in so doing. Personally, I agree with Faith in that there is more to it that many skeptics and unbelievers simply refuse to see. For them, solid evidence will always guide them and leaps of faith are forbidden. For believers, something or someone must have sparked their passion...it is not simply a wishful fantasy.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-24-2018 10:08 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2018 11:14 AM Phat has responded
 Message 49 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-27-2018 9:11 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 53 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-29-2018 5:15 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 10 of 54 (840233)
09-26-2018 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
09-25-2018 11:39 AM


Re: What LNA Believes (about religions). I believe we should have a chance to "know God"
jar writes:

How do you explain the fact that if it were God's will there is no single uniform or universal Christian Canon but rather a range that varies from just 5 books and excluding all of the New Testament as canonical to over 80 books?

First we have to come to some consensus on whether God has an interest in the evolving activities of humans or whether He is so lofty and unknowable that we will forever be clueless of His outlook and perspective on creation in general.

I believe that He is aware of our efforts to know and define our beliefs, overarching purpose and destiny and that He allows us to freely express our beliefs and opinions of Him and of every other concept which we so invent.

I believe that He desires communion...communication with humanity. If you were an inventor and made a talking thinking robot in your shop, would you not have an interest in interacting with your creation?

There is no uniformity in our writings because there is no uniformity within our beliefs.

Was God incapable of determining the final product as the evidence shows?
Whether God is involved in determining the final product or not, we are ourselves contributing to that final product through our actions, behaviors, beliefs and will turn out to be a definite conclusion as a species someday. Whether God was involved in our decisions remains to be seen. Whether He cares about the outcome is also speculative...though I would argue that He has an interest.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 09-25-2018 11:39 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 09-26-2018 12:10 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 12 of 54 (840237)
09-26-2018 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tangle
09-26-2018 11:14 AM


Re: Who Do You Say That I Am?
Tangle writes:

If there was one truth there'd be one answer and we'd all know it.

What makes you think we would all know it? There are many obvious truths in life that we *all* don't know.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2018 11:14 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2018 11:30 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 14 of 54 (840240)
09-26-2018 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Tangle
09-26-2018 11:30 AM


Re: Who Do You Say That I Am?
A lot depends on your perspective. If I said to you "Tangle, why not contemplate the magic man in the sky?" you would laugh and scoff and brush me off as delusional...as well as the concept. But what if I said to you, "Tangle...have you ever considered the ground of all Being? Is there anything cohesive about this universe beyond mere science and physics and moon rocks and telescopes and radiometric dating? Is there the possibility of a universal consciousness and, if so, what consensus would we have ...with no evidence?" would you simply dismiss the possibility of such a concept since you had no evidence?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2018 11:30 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2018 11:46 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 17 of 54 (840247)
09-26-2018 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tangle
09-26-2018 11:46 AM


Re: Who Do You Say That I Am?
Obviously people are making this stuff up - how else are there so many different opinions? If there was one truth there'd be one answer and we'd all know it.
That's where you conclude prematurely. We all would not know it.

The story was that god sent his son the earth to die to save us all.
More precisely, God became human (or communicated through a human) to establish a relationship and communication with us. That we fail to believe it is only because we would rather write our own script than follow the one laid out.
Despite that being utterly barking mad and obviously just the invention of primitive minds, the bloody prophesy described by the myth did not get fulfilled.
Which prophecy? That He came once? Ot that He will come again? Or perhaps that He is already here.
Not only is there no agreement on who, when and why we're supposed to be saved by this event we even know it didn't result in the predicted outcome.
Depends on which predictions you are talking about and your idea of how they should be interpreted and fulfilled.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2018 11:46 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 18 of 54 (840249)
09-26-2018 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ringo
09-26-2018 12:02 PM


Re: What LNA Believes (about religions). I believe we should have a chance to "know God"
ringo writes:

There is no necessity to know the messenger.

You keep insisting that messengers are like envelopes. It also means that you only know whom you find value in knowing.
You know that it's only the message that matters, so why do you keep bringing up that nonsense?
Because I don't only find value in the message. You want me to go do a bunch of work when I don't even know whom I'm working for. I would hardly waste a bunch of sweat on the socialist worker's party, for example. I want to work for someone with integrity and wisdom.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 12:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 09-26-2018 12:15 PM Phat has responded
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 12:19 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 20 of 54 (840251)
09-26-2018 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
09-26-2018 12:10 PM


Re: What LNA Believes (about religions). I believe we should have a chance to "know God"
I submit that we ourselves are the evidence. What do we show?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 09-26-2018 12:10 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 23 of 54 (840254)
09-26-2018 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
09-26-2018 12:15 PM


Re: What LNA Believes (about religions). I believe we should have a chance to "know God"
Which group is more likely to support modern tithing, the Republicans or the Socialist Workers Party?
The Socialists want all of your money to be devoted to the common good. The republicans advicate a choice to contribute as long as there is a tax break. jesus works by changing the human heart. Socialists will never make a better world while 5% control 90% of the resources. They will only force all of us left to support all of us.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 09-26-2018 12:15 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 09-26-2018 2:09 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 24 of 54 (840256)
09-26-2018 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ringo
09-26-2018 12:19 PM


Re: What LNA Believes (about religions). I believe we should have a chance to "know God"
So, in other words, you work for the people. As I told jar, the socialists will never make a better world by forcingus to support all of us. Without the 90% wealth of the top 5% it wont happen. Only God can change the human heart. We wont simply go to work for the people and believe that it will all turn out ok. It wont.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 12:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 12:51 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 27 of 54 (840264)
09-26-2018 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
09-26-2018 12:51 PM


Re: What LNA Believes (about religions). I believe we should have a chance to "know God"
look at the number of any group in prison...aside from perhaps Orthodox Jews, they are all represented numerically.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 12:51 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 1:17 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 29 of 54 (840269)
09-26-2018 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by ringo
09-26-2018 1:17 PM


Re: What LNA Believes (about religions). I believe we should have a chance to "know God"
The ones who have unregenerate hearts likely ignored the messenger and made up their own message. To your credit, humans can and do make up good messages to themselves also...but I would argue that it is evidence of a changed or changing heart. Not everyone has good motives.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 1:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 1:22 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 32 of 54 (840274)
09-26-2018 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by ringo
09-26-2018 1:22 PM


Re: What LNA Believes (about religions). I believe we should have a chance to "know God"
It's the ones who put importance on the messenger who are making up their own message.
The jury is still out. You claim that my messenger was a murderer who would torture you and that you will trust your beloved socialists.(the people in the streets) whereas I maintain that we will see anarchy and civil disorder and that your beloved socialists will be rioting and looting with the rest of the masses as confusion reigns...and at that point, society will long for the messenger. You may claim that I am negative about human capabilities and I will agree that I may be too pessimistic. I feel that we need God whereas you don't. So we disagree and continue to debate our finer points.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 1:22 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 1:38 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 33 of 54 (840275)
09-26-2018 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
09-26-2018 1:23 PM


Re: What LNA Believes (about religions). I believe we should have a chance to "know God"
He is right that there are many Christians in prisons, but many of them became Christians after ending up there.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 09-26-2018 1:23 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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