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Author Topic:   Bible Inerrancy stands against all objections
Faith 
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From: Nevada, USA
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Message 1 of 232 (841842)
10-22-2018 5:28 PM


This came up on RAZD's thread about age correlations, starting at Message 876 both GDR and dwise commenting that creationists wrongly insist that the Bible is inerrant. It's off topic there so if anyone has more to say on the subject it does need a new thread, although I don't think there's much to discuss about it, just inerrantists saying we hold to it no matter what and anti-inerrantists saying science won't let us.

In any case here's my answer to dwise and I'll post my answer to GDR in the next post.

dwise1 writes:

Creationists keep claiming that the Bible does not contain any error and that if even a single error were to be found in the Bible, then the entire Bible is in error and completely false and it must be thrown into the dustbin (Br for "garbage can").

Furthermore, they claim that if the Bible is not true then God does not exist (or alternatively that God is a Liar and must not be worshipped). Either way, they are taught that they must abandon their faith and become atheists (not real atheists, but rather the perverted Christian version).

Additionally, they have made many false claims about the real world and have assigned those false claims the same inerrancy status as they have the Bible. Therefore, if they false claims about the real world are shown to be false, then that disproves the Bible which in turn disproves God.

Obviously, the Bible is not completely devoid of errors. And obviously their false claims about the real world are false. They have booby-trapped their faith and then stumbled into their own traps.
Or to put it into the terms that GDR offers, they are putting words into God's mouth, words that God never said and never would say.
I do not believe any of that. I have a much more realistic understanding of the Bible. It obviously contains errors, but that has no bearing whatsoever on whether the rest of it is in error. That also had no bearing whatsoever on whether God exists or not. And false claims about the real world are just plain false and should not be used. Making one's faith dependent on those false claims about the real world can only result in driving everybody away from that false creationist theology.

Creationists must examine what they believe in order to weed out false beliefs such as "creation science".

Actual creationists (as opposed to faux creationists like creation) believe that God created that universe. Science studies how the universe works. Creationists claim that explanations using natural processes for how something works denies God, whereas actual creationists believe that God created those natural processes, including evolutionary processes. There is no conflict between divine Creation and science, including evolution.

The only thing that causes any conflict with science is when creationists inject their false theology and false claims.

Bible inerrancy is a principle that goes back to the earliest times, it isn't a recent idea concocted in response to evolutionary theory as some seem to think. There was no conflict with science until the pseudosciences of the Theory of Evolution and the Old Earth came along. (Galileo was opposed by the Roman Church's adherence to Aristotle, not the Bible). There is nothing false about our theology, the problem is that these are pseudosciences and they create the conflict.

Here is a pretty thorough declaration of Bible inerrancy:

Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy with Exposition:

It doesn't get into issues of creation science beyond making the general statement that the Bible is correct wherever it touches on such matters. This is stated in Article XII:

Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrany writes:

WE AFFIRM that Scripture in its entirety is inerrant, being free from all falsehood, fraud, or deceit.

WE DENY that Biblical infallibility and inerrancy are limited to spiritual, religious, or redemptive themes, exclusive of assertions in the fields of history and science. We further deny that scientific hypotheses about earth history may properly be used to overturn the teaching of Scripture on creation and the flood.

In other words it denies the criteria used by science to argue against the Bible. Where issues remain unresolved it exhorts believers to affirm the truth of the Bible on the expectation that eventually it will be shown that the supposed contradiction is an illusion.

This is our foundation. Any of our particular attempts to answer scientific claims may be wrong, but the Bible remains the foundation and the truth we are always striving for.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2 of 232 (841843)
10-22-2018 5:37 PM


to GDR: Word of God is both Christ and Scripture
GDR to creation writes:

You keep trying to have the Bible say something that wasn't intended when it was written and isn't intended now.

Biblical inerrancy was intended then and now. I'm including a link below to a document on the subject.

It draws you and others away from what God is really trying to tell us.

Not so. Creation is simply affirming what all Christians affirm, that God is right and any claims to the contrary don't matter.

Let science do the job it does very well and learn from it. It tells us how things are and how it got to be that way. Let us use our Christianity to tell us why things are the way they are.

Science is wonderful and does not contradict the Bible. Evolution is false science.

When you look at evolutionary theory you should look at it with amazement that God could bring about a process that allowed you and all the other myriad of living creatures to evolve.

God created creatures to "evolve" -- vary in wonderful ways -- only within their Kind, but not from one Kind or Species to another. This is very clear from the Bible for those who know the Bible is God's inerrant word.

Science has given us healthier longer and fuller lives. Why don't you just be grateful to God for what it has accomplished instead of treating it like an enemy.

I haven't read all of creation's posts but I doubt he is saying anything at all against science as such since Christians strongly affirm true science, True science is a gift from God and it HAS given us longer and healthier lives, but evolutionary theory has given us absolutely nothing of use. Zip, nada.

And here's the link to this document I also just posted to dwise:

Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy with Exposition .

Besides noting what I posted to dwise, I'd particularly like you to be aware of the section titled Authority: Christ and the Bible because you are always asserting that Christ is the Word but the Bible is not:

Chicago Statement writes:

Jesus Christ, the Son of God who is the Word made flesh, our Prophet, Priest, and King, is the ultimate Mediator of God's communication to man, as He is of all God's gifts of grace. The revelation He gave was more than verbal; He revealed the Father by His presence and His deeds as well. Yet His words were crucially important; for He was God, He spoke from the Father, and His words will judge all men at the last day.

As the prophesied Messiah, Jesus Christ is the central theme of Scripture. The Old Testament looked ahead to Him; the New Testament looks back to His first coming and on to His second. Canonical Scripture is the divinely inspired and therefore normative witness to Christ. No hermeneutic, therefore, of which the historical Christ is not the focal point is acceptable. Holy Scripture must be treated as what it essentially is—the witness of the Father to the Incarnate Son.

It appears that the Old Testament canon had been fixed by the time of Jesus. The New Testament canon is likewise now closed inasmuch as no new apostolic witness to the historical Christ can now be borne. No new revelation (as distinct from Spirit-given understanding of existing revelation) will be given until Christ comes again. The canon was created in principle by divine inspiration. The Church's part was to discern the canon which God had created, not to devise one of its own.

The word canon, signifying a rule or standard, is a pointer to authority, which means the right to rule and control. Authority in Christianity belongs to God in His revelation, which means, on the one hand, Jesus Christ, the living Word, and, on the other hand, Holy Scripture, the written Word. But the authority of Christ and that of Scripture are one. As our Prophet, Christ testified that Scripture cannot be broken. As our Priest and King, He devoted His earthly life to fulfilling the law and the prophets, even dying in obedience to the words of Messianic prophecy. Thus, as He saw Scripture attesting Him and His authority, so by His own submission to Scripture He attested its authority. As He bowed to His Father's instruction given in His Bible (our Old Testament), so He requires His disciples to do—not, however, in isolation but in conjunction with the apostolic witness to Himself which He undertook to inspire by His gift of the Holy Spirit. So Christians show themselves faithful servants of their Lord by bowing to the divine instruction given in the prophetic and apostolic writings which together make up our Bible.

By authenticating each other's authority, Christ and Scripture coalesce into a single fount of authority. The Biblically-interpreted Christ and the Christ-centered, Christ-proclaiming Bible are from this standpoint one. As from the fact of inspiration we infer that what Scripture says, God says, so from the revealed relation between Jesus Christ and Scripture we may equally declare that what Scripture says, Christ says.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 6 of 232 (841849)
10-22-2018 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dr Adequate
10-22-2018 6:57 PM


I gather there was some bad biblical theology that was used against Galileo also, but even Wikipedia lays the problem on the Church's adherence to Aristotle and Ptolemy:

Galileo's contributions caused difficulties for theologians and natural philosophers of the time, as they contradicted scientific and philosophical ideas based on those of Aristotle and Ptolemy and closely associated with the Catholic Church. In particular, Galileo's observations of the phases of Venus, which showed it to circle the sun, and the observation of moons orbiting Jupiter, contradicted the geocentric model of Ptolemy, which was backed and accepted by the Roman Catholic Church,[4][5] and supported the Copernican model advanced by Galileo.[6]

Some passages in the Bible are mentioned as contradicted by Galileo's theory also, but in the end this view changed, at least in Protestant circles I believe.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 8 of 232 (841852)
10-22-2018 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by GDR
10-22-2018 7:31 PM


Re: to GDR: Word of God is both Christ and Scripture
Augustine was all over the place on some subjects. He's great on salvation by faith but not so great on science.

Science cannot contradict the Bible as they are answering different questions.

Not according to the statement I linked which clearly says the Bible is to be held as inerrant on matters of history and science as well as spiritual matters.

I disagree that evolution is false science, but even if it is, that still does not mean the your understanding of how to read the Bible is correct.

I'm going with the statement on inerrancy which declares that the Bible is true on every subject it addresses, which includes some statements that have implications for today's sciences. I think it's pretty clear that there is no contradiction with all the sciences which as you say have made our lives better in many ways, and which we should thank God for; which leaves the Old Earth and Evolutionary Theory as the only sources of conflict, and again, sources of nothing in the slightest bit useful to us. These are the historical sciences that can't be proved as the hard sciences can be, because they reach back to events that can't be verified in themselves. It all remains theory or conjecture as a result. Wherever there are some claims that do appear to contradict the Bible, such as the tree rings, as the Statement on Inerrancy says, we trust that they will eventually be explained in accordance with the scripture.

Just a couple of thoughts. When you read the Sermon on the Mount it is clear that Jesus corrects as erroneous parts of the OT.

Not according to my theology. He reveals their spiritual meaning whereas the Jews understood them to refer only to outward behavior. So Jesus said the commandment against adultery isn't just against the outward act, but is also violated by inner thoughts of lust; that the commandment against murder isn't just against the outward act but is also violated by inner thoughts of hatred toward anybody. In other words He showed their true breadth, he didn't contradict them.

On divorce He even goes so far as to say that it came from Moses, not from God.

No He doesn't. He says Moses was lenient about divorce, allowing it because of the hardness of the men's hearts, though in reality God hates divorce and opposes it in all cases. In this case as in the above two cases discussed, Jesus could be said to show that the true commandment is stricter than the Jews take it to be.

Also in all 3 synoptic Gospels it tells about how the Pharisees claimed that the miracles of Jesus were done through evil powers. Jesus goes on to say that ascribing that which is good to evil blasphemes the Holy Spirit.

You are doing essentially the same thing. You are calling evil, (genocide and public stoning etc), good by your heretical understanding of Scripture.

Except that it is Scripture itself which ascribes those events as God's acts of justice. Stoning to death was the way the death penalty was executed in those days. So what is heretical is your insistence that the Scripture is wrong and that those acts are evil. You are the one calling good evil and evil good, not I.

Incidentally in the first post you talked about me not calling the Bible the word of God. I believe that the Bible is a library of books that God uses to speak to us. However I would call it the word of God while Jesus is the "Word of God". John tells us that the logos existed from time immemorial and became flesh. He didn't say that it became a book. It's in the Bible.

Well, read what I quoted. It says that there is a reciprocity between the written Word and Christ as the Word of God, that ultimately they are one, validating each other.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 9 of 232 (841853)
10-22-2018 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dr Adequate
10-22-2018 9:17 PM


Then the argument would have to be that they were wrong. But I keep encountering descriptions of Romanism's adherence to Aristotle in particular, even a former priest who says that's all he was taught, just Aristotle, not the Bible. However, there do seem to be some confusions involved in all this.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 14 of 232 (841875)
10-23-2018 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dr Adequate
10-22-2018 10:10 PM


Well, you know, I showed you the document. There's eleven mentions of Holy Scripture in there and none of Aristotle and Ptolemy. You might say that they were misinterpreting scripture, you might even say that the plausibility of the Ptolemaic model made it easier to do so. But they thought they were defending Scripture and not Ptolemy...

Scripture isn't geocentric. It doesn't say anything clear about such things at all.

just as when you talk flood geology you think that you're defending the Bible rather than Henry Morris.

Most of my arguments are based on my own completely original observations of geological information, in most cases without referring at all to the Bible or Morris or anything except the physical information.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 15 of 232 (841877)
10-23-2018 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Paboss
10-23-2018 4:07 AM


Re: to GDR: Word of God is both Christ and Scripture
The Statement of Biblical Inerrancy is aimed at capturing the biblical understanding of believers back to the beginning. As I've said, it's foundational, everything else follows from it. God inspired it, therefore it is inerrant.

The usual resolution of the incident you mention has to do with "hearing" meaning "understanding" and when it says they saw no man nothing contradicts that since in the other cases all they saw was light, not a person.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 16 of 232 (841879)
10-23-2018 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by PaulK
10-23-2018 12:31 AM


Re: to GDR: Word of God is both Christ and Scripture
Biblical Inerrancy is standard accepted dogma, and this statement was signed by some of the biggest names in evangelicalism.

The Chicago Statement was signed by nearly 300 noted evangelical scholars, including James Boice, Norman L. Geisler, John Gerstner, Carl F. H. Henry, (Kenneth Kantzer), (Harold Lindsell), John Warwick Montgomery, (Roger Nicole), J. I. Packer, (Robert Preus), Earl Radmacher, Francis Schaeffer, R. C. Sproul, and (John Wenham).

Out of this list of fourteen, I'm familiar with all but five, which I've put in parentheses. For an average believer like me to be familiar with that many names on the list means those are really big names, and if they signed this document that makes it pretty authoritative.

If they don't see contradictions where you see them, guess what, they're right, you're wrong.

All the supposed contradictions are trivial, anyway.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 18 of 232 (841884)
10-23-2018 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by PaulK
10-23-2018 8:58 AM


Re: to GDR: Word of God is both Christ and Scripture
I've never been very interested in trying to resolve all the supposed discrepancies. Most of them are usually resolved easily enough as just one writer's particular focus differing from the others' and those that can't be so easily resolved are unimportant anyway. What makes the Bible most importantly inerrant is the main themes, the continuity from one book to another down the centuries that build up the overall revelation. I have no respect whatever for those who object to the traditional order and interpretation, so I just ignore all your stuff along those lines.

The point of presenting this document on biblical inerrancy was to answer GDR and dwise who seem to treat it as something creationists made up. It's not, it's established doctrine and creation science has to adhere to it same as other Christian enterprises have to. Picking it apart doesn't change any of that.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 20 of 232 (841898)
10-23-2018 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Tangle
10-23-2018 10:50 AM


Cross sections give a lot of amazing information that couldn't be acquired in the field anyway.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 28 of 232 (841920)
10-23-2018 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Taq
10-23-2018 4:44 PM


Re: to GDR: Word of God is both Christ and Scripture
Biblical Inerrancy is standard accepted dogma, and this statement was signed by some of the biggest names in evangelicalism.

Then why do you use an interpretation of the Bible that is shown to be false by all of the evidence science has found? If the Bible is inerrant then a young Earth has to be false just as Geocentrism has to be false.

First, I don't know if those signers find the Young Earth in scripture, it isn't mentioned in the document. I think it's pretty inescapable myself but I don't want to impose that on them. My own view is that it is there and that means the Old Earth is simply wrong. The document merely says that wherever there is conflict with science the Bible is right and will eventually be shown to be right.

I don't see geocentrism in the Bible though.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 29 of 232 (841921)
10-23-2018 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by GDR
10-23-2018 4:32 PM


Re: to GDR: Word of God is both Christ and Scripture
Augustine was all over the place on some subjects. He's great on salvation by faith but not so great on science.

Your comment was that your belief on inerrancy was there from the beginning and yet you discount Augustine who rather predates your 40 year old document.

It's the document that says inerrancy goes back to the beginning, I don't know who they are referring to but Augustine IS known for his many different opinions even on the same subject throughout his lengthy career and voluminous writings.

I’ve also shown you where Jesus didn’t believe in an inerrant scripture either but of course He was wrong because He doesn’t agree with you.

You did not show Jesus denying an inerrant Bible. He quoted from every book in the OT as authoritative.

Incidentally that doesn’t mean that he didn’t take the Scriptures seriously. In all likelihood He had them memorized.

He wrote them, why wouldn't He know them from memory?

Not according to the statement I linked which clearly says the Bible is to be held as inerrant on matters of history and science as well as spiritual matters.

So you found some guys that agree with you which of automatically makes them authorities.

I learned what I believe from them among other teachers, they were authoritative before I came along.

Not according to my theology. He reveals their spiritual meaning whereas the Jews understood them to refer only to outward behavior. So Jesus said the commandment against adultery isn't just against the outward act, but is also violated by inner thoughts of lust; that the commandment against murder isn't just against the outward act but is also violated by inner thoughts of hatred toward anybody. In other words He showed their true breadth, he didn't contradict them.

He says Moses was lenient about divorce, allowing it because of the hardness of the men's hearts, though in reality God hates divorce and opposes it in all cases. In this case as in the above two cases discussed, Jesus could be said to show that the true commandment is stricter than the Jews take it to be.

Yes, He expanded on them but it does not negate the fact that he corrected what was wrong in the OT. In this case He clearly says that it was Moses who gave that commandment - not God.

He says it was Moses who SOFTENED the commandment because of their hard hearts, he gave no commandment himself.

Once again you make a false idol out of an inerrant Bible, putting the Bible ahead of Jesus.

There is no way to put the Bible ahead of Jesus since as God He wrote it and all its words are His words.

Except that it is Scripture itself which ascribes those events as God's acts of justice. Stoning to death was the way the death penalty was executed in those days. So what is heretical is your insistence that the Scripture is wrong and that those acts are evil. You are the one calling good evil and evil good, not I.

So genocide and public stoning for minor offences are good things.

Nobody was stoned for a minor offense, you just have no appreciation of the seriousness of the crime so punished. You also have no appreciation of the magnitude of the sins that had accumulated for centuries before God judged a people by wiping them out.

Stoning to death a poor smuck for picking up some fire wood on the Sabbath is an act of justice.

Absolutely it is. Doing any work on the Sabbath would have been an extreme violation of an extremely important commandment, which any "poor schmuck" would have known well, so that to violate it was a direct intentional affront to God and an example for rebellion to the rest of the people.

Forget the slaughter of the Canaanites for now. How about the Midianites where we can see this act of justice from Numbers 31.

quote:
17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. 18 But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.

Your understanding of God allows for the women to be taken for the purposes of the men. Whatever can that Mean? Not much of a feminist are you.

You read out of context. The Midianite women had seduced Israelite men in the past into fornication and idolatry and to include them in the nation would have exposed the Israelites to further sins.

Num 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

Here's one commentary on the incident:

quote:
b. Keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately: Therefore, all the women who had known a man intimately were to be killed. But ones who had not been connected with the immorality and idolatry of the Midianites could be kept alive.

c. Every male among the little ones: These also had to be killed. This was harsh, but done with the understanding that in that ancient culture, the boys would have grown into men with the solemn responsibility to avenge their father's death and to perpetuate Midianite culture - which in itself was anti-God.


Your brand of fundamentalism is the modern equivalent of the Pharisees of Jesus’ time. They believed that if they kept all of the myriad of laws they had come up with, that God would do all that they hoped He would do. (Defeat their enemies etc. )

The Pharisees made the following of the laws they had come up with the path to Yahweh. You make the belief in the dogma that you hold to be the path to God. You have turned faith into Salvation by works, and you don’t even have to do any work. You just have to believe the right stuff and you have instant salvation. It is totally foreign to what Jesus taught and lived, and it isn’t even scriptural. You turn a God of love, compassion, forgiveness and mercy into a small little petulant deity.

I've learned from the best over the years. don't think I'll even answer such a perverse statement. I think I'll leave it to the LORD to straighten you out eventually.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 232 (841922)
10-23-2018 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by JonF
10-23-2018 1:18 PM


Field work gives a lot of amazing and critical information that couldn't be acquired from cross sections. Far more information than is available in cross sections.

No doubt, but it's different information.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
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Message 31 of 232 (841923)
10-23-2018 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by PaulK
10-23-2018 3:53 PM


Re: I don’t always agree with James McGrath
No idea who James McGrath is and your quote is sheer gobbledygook.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
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Message 32 of 232 (841924)
10-23-2018 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by PaulK
10-23-2018 1:38 PM


Re: to GDR: Word of God is both Christ and Scripture
You are blathering on about stuff you don't bother to demonstrate so I have no reason to take any of it seriously.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by PaulK, posted 10-23-2018 1:38 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by PaulK, posted 10-24-2018 12:20 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
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