quote:Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
abe: Oh and it's a really big mistake to pit Jesus against the Old Testament since He IS the God of the Old Testament incarnate
Your quote is bracketed before and after by the Old Testament and the New Testament:
quote:Genesis 4:15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
God Himself specifically forbade killing the first murderer.
quote:John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
And Jesus pointed out that even IF murderers deserve to die, none of us is qualified to kill them. (There's that pesky, "Judge not lest ye be judged," thing again.)
quote: The book of Genesis agrees with you. If you look at the story of Adam and Eve, when they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil they didn't die nor became mortal. What happened to them was the exact thing the snake said. God kicked them off Eden so that they wouldn't eat from the Tree of Life and live forever. This means they weren't immortal, but if they had eaten from the Tree of Life they would have become. Hence, they were created mortal.
Maybe that's how Paul and the people of his time saw this story, but as time went on the meaning was altered to suit a different audience.
The gnostics felt the whole material creation was something of an evil act.
"Dualism" means something to the effect that (perhaps) EVERYTHING IN THE PRESENT was in existence from some "beginning" and good and evil are simply products of all all existing from "the beginning".
Augustine certainly did not want to support this type of theology.
(Paul, of course, pre-dated Augustine, but it is not 100% certain what Paul believed)
And Jesus pointed out that even IF murderers deserve to die, none of us is qualified to kill them. (There's that pesky, "Judge not lest ye be judged," thing again.)
I don't want to get embroiled in this discussion but I can't resist commenting on your post ringo. I don't see your "judge not lest ye be judged" quote is applicable when it comes to capital punishment. When our courts sentences someone to life in prison we as a society are judging them and saying that what they have done is absolutely wrong. As a society we have rightly judged murder to be wrong.
I look at people who have committed terrible atrocities and I might truly believe that what they have done deserves that they should forfeit their life. The problem though is that ultimately, we as a society use some individual or individuals to do our dirty work for us. Some one has to perform that execution. Sure, there will be all sorts of people prepared to do it but that isn't the point. We send our young people off to war and they so often come back with their lives shattered because of what they have seen and done. Capital punishment just hardens the heart of the executioner and it hardens the hearts of our whole society.
Capital punishment, even if deserved, is wrong for society. It drags us all down.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
It is the Bible that prescribes the death penalty for murder, as I quote above in Message 164, and it is the Bible that also affirms the high value of human life. If you all can't put those two facts together in one coherent philosophy there is something wrong with your heads.
Hint: It is BECAUSE of the high value God puts on human life as the Image of God that murder is punishable by death.
ABE: And I'll add, NOT putting a murderer to death brings a nation under God's judgment.
It is the Bible that prescribes the death penalty for murder, as I quote above in Message 164, and it is the Bible that also affirms the high value of human life. If you all can't put those two facts together in one coherent philosophy there is something wrong with your heads.
This is simply another example of disregarding Jesus in order to believe in an inerrant Bible.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
The taking of an INNOCENT human life is wrong, it's murder; the execution of a murderer is just.
So when a society with the death penalty, executes someone who later evidence shows is innocent, then that person has been murdered, yes ?
It is sad that there can be such miscarriages of justice, and often it is because of corrupt motivations too, or a rush to judgment. But when the legal system makes the decision we don't call it murder. Seems there should be some means of redress in such a case, but it's not murder.
The Bible makes provision for unintended killings also and doesn't treat them as murder.
In those circumstances, who should be executed for murdering that innocent person ?
I find it hard not to call it murder. We’re human - we’re going to make mistakes - that is 100% inevitable.
As a result, if a country goes for the death penalty, then that decision is going to be taken in the sure and certain knowledge that it will lead to the deaths of innocent people.
The significant majority of the research I have read indicates that the death penalty does not deter capital crimes more than life imprisonment. On that basis, there is no gain to be had from taking a decision which will kill innocent people.
I can’t distinguish that from murder.
Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
I have no problem making distinctions between mistakes and accidents and murder, and I suspect it's not really all that hard for you either.
Deterrence is not given as justification for the Biblical standard. We should certainly determine with all the best safeguards possible that murder actually was committed by the accused but when that has been determined execution is the just punishment.
But the decision to have the death penalty is not an accident - that’s a deliberate choice.
The analogy would be an adult giving toddlers some copper wire and access to live electrical sockets. The toddlers will make mistakes and get electrocuted - but the adult will rightly be punished for having taken the decision which will inevitably lead to accidental deaths.
Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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