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Author Topic:   Bible Inerrancy stands against all objections
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 211 of 223 (848344)
02-03-2019 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by ringo
02-03-2019 4:47 PM


Re: The Road Not Taken
It is not evident to me because you yourself do not believe it. All that you can do is report what the book says. Which is unimpressive. Look at my situation. I am nearly 60 years old. Diabetic. Just had eye surgery, and fight to maintain health. I am no longer young and strong. I have belief, and it had served me well for many years, but for some reason, I had to attempt to prove its validity...test it, one may say. Why this is important to me, I do not know. I have to be honest with myself, however. Perhaps I looked at God as a Being Who offered me a promise. And now, I find no evidence, no promise, (except blood,toil,tears, and sweat) and it frustrates me...but I wont ever take the step of abandoning my belief and going over to the dark side as many of you have done. Perhaps I am looking for the right answer in the wrong place.

I am looking inside myself, however. I cant let myself down or I will die. (or be miserable)...

You may suggest that I give more spare change. All I know is that I owe money on medical bills, have no retirement saved up, am getting older and weaker, and on top of all that find no evidence of any sort of promise that I have believed in.

How can your logic and wisdom be of any comfort to me?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by ringo, posted 02-03-2019 4:47 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by ringo, posted 02-03-2019 5:04 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 213 by AZPaul3, posted 02-03-2019 7:20 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 212 of 223 (848346)
02-03-2019 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Phat
02-03-2019 4:55 PM


Re: The Road Not Taken
Phat writes:

It is not evident to me because you yourself do not believe it.


Stop.

What I believe is completely irrelevant. What does the Bible SAY? Does it say, "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us," or not?


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 02-03-2019 4:55 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3764
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 213 of 223 (848352)
02-03-2019 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Phat
02-03-2019 4:55 PM


Re: The Road Not Taken
You may suggest that I give more spare change. All I know is that I owe money on medical bills, have no retirement saved up, am getting older and weaker, and on top of all that find no evidence of any sort of promise that I have believed in.

How can your logic and wisdom be of any comfort to me?

His can't. Neither can mine. Neither can yours.

The issues you have are political. No matter what world view you care to follow your only direct relief for these issues will be political. This society sucks for so many in your position.

But we can change things at least somewhat maybe but we have to get political. That means lots of jawboning with friends, neighbors and co-workers. Gotta go man the phones and help set up the PA systems and racks of chairs.

But ringo is right. Remember, there are many ways to hand out spare change that do not involve money. A smile, a helping hand, a kind word, a helpful gesture all good for a sagging disposition.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 02-03-2019 4:55 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 214 of 223 (848381)
02-04-2019 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by ringo
02-03-2019 4:47 PM


Re: The Road Not Taken
OK, I'll admit that it says what it says and that it says that God said it. For some reason, this provides scant comfort for me. It is a story in a book from long long ago. I've been told that the book is inerrant. I've also been told and believed that the words were alive, like living water. All that is promised, however, is that I know good and evil and have to work my whole life. This is depressing! Granted some people are worse off than I am. Perhaps I never was promised anything special.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by ringo, posted 02-03-2019 4:47 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Tangle, posted 02-04-2019 3:27 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 216 by ringo, posted 02-04-2019 10:40 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6618
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 215 of 223 (848383)
02-04-2019 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Phat
02-04-2019 2:48 AM


Re: The Road Not Taken
Phat writes:

Perhaps I never was promised anything special.

None of us were.

That's progress though - the beginning of realising that we need to make the best of what we are and not invest so much into impossible fantasies. You've been unlucky to have been born in a sophisticated country with contradictory unsophisticated and very primitive beliefs.

You would have done better being born either in my Muslim village in the Atlas mountains where your beliefs wouldn't be challenged, or a 'nice' village in the Home Counties of England where your beliefs would be so flexible that they can't be threatened by anything.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 02-04-2019 2:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 216 of 223 (848391)
02-04-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Phat
02-04-2019 2:48 AM


Re: The Road Not Taken
Phat writes:

It is a story in a book from long long ago.


It's the same book that contains the stories about Jesus. It's the only source you have.

Phat writes:

I've also been told and believed that the words were alive, like living water.


In which case you should try to get something worthwhile out of them instead of throwing away the ones you don't like.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 02-04-2019 2:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 217 of 223 (848711)
02-14-2019 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by ringo
10-28-2018 4:43 PM


Re: Martin Luther told us humans not to compromise scripture with (heliocentric) science.
ringo writes:

Becoming more like God is not a fall.

It is if pride is involved.

Humans think they will survive against incredible odds and conquer space (and time). Take away all of our gadgets and we are still much like bonobos.

One reason why I need God is that I need to trust an authority wiser than I am.

I also need support and encouragement. You seem to think God provides none of these.

I will admit that I need to trust humans more, but I feel that you have ruled God out simply because of lack of objective evidence.

Since when has belief ever hurt anyone?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 10-28-2018 4:43 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Theodoric, posted 02-14-2019 12:01 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 219 by ringo, posted 02-14-2019 12:14 PM Phat has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5929
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 218 of 223 (848717)
02-14-2019 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
02-14-2019 11:52 AM


Re: Martin Luther told us humans not to compromise scripture with (heliocentric) science.
Since when has belief ever hurt anyone?

Wow! Tee that one right up.

Have you heard of any of these things?

The Crusades.
Pogroms
Slavery
Christian Science religion
JW's and no transfusions
Dr. Tiller
Religions condoning and hiding sexual abuse
White Supremacy


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 02-14-2019 11:52 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 219 of 223 (848722)
02-14-2019 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
02-14-2019 11:52 AM


Re: Martin Luther told us humans not to compromise scripture with (heliocentric) science.
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Becoming more like God is not a fall.


It is if pride is involved.

What has pride got to do with it?

Phat writes:

Humans think they will survive against incredible odds and conquer space (and time).


I've corrected you on that many times. No we don't.

We know that most species go extinct and there's no reason to think that doesn't include us. And it's becoming more and more likely that we will become the authors of our own demise.

BUT - we are all we've got.

Phat writes:

One reason why I need God is that I need to trust an authority wiser than I am.


What reason do you have to think that the God you made up is wiser than you, except that that's the way you made Him up to be?

(I'm thinking of Ian Fleming making up James Bond - in his own image but better looking, gets more chicks, able to leap tall buildings at a single bound, etc.)

Phat writes:

I also need support and encouragement. You seem to think God provides none of these.


If you think He does, feel free to trundle out anything beyond your own imagination.

Phat writes:

... I feel that you have ruled God out simply because of lack of objective evidence.


And you have ruled out Zeus and unicorns and leprechauns for the same reason.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 02-14-2019 11:52 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 02-14-2019 1:14 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 220 of 223 (848727)
02-14-2019 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by ringo
02-14-2019 12:14 PM


Again we disagree concerning evidence
Zeus and unicorns and leprechauns...
These three characters have no following. Millions of people believe that God is real and that Jesus is alive. (Yes i know...appeal to popularity logical fallacy ) Can you really be confident that you are right and all of the believers n error? Many claim they have subjective evidence. Evidently, you and the hardcore skeptics are unimpressed with their stories. I've even had a couple of incidents that I knew were unexplainable. You simply advised me to leave them unexplainable rather than attaching Jesus or God to them.

I'm not convinced that it's best for us to teach society that cherished beliefs are a myth. And before you bring up Santa Claus, everybody knows he is a myth unless you are 4 years old.

Finally, look at the many professionals who have degrees in Theology and Divinity and Philosophy who earned Doctorates in religious studies. Do you really think they dont believe? I guess im just puzzled why you alone (with a few others) concluded the way that you did. After all you spent a third of your life in churches. Was there not anyone who impressed you with honesty and good character? I sometimes feel as if skeptics and critics think all of Christianity is simply charlatans and fantasy based dreamers.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by ringo, posted 02-14-2019 12:14 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by ringo, posted 02-14-2019 1:37 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 222 by Stile, posted 02-14-2019 1:50 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 223 by Tangle, posted 02-14-2019 2:12 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 221 of 223 (848733)
02-14-2019 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
02-14-2019 1:14 PM


Re: Again we disagree concerning evidence
Phat writes:

Millions of people believe that God is real and that Jesus is alive.


Correction: Billions of people believe in thousands of Gods. A small handful believe Jesus is alive. So, logical fallacies aside, you lose the popularity contest anyway.

Phat writes:

Can you really be confident that you are right and all of the believers n error?


You're pretty confident that the Hindus and Muslims are in error, aren't you? Why shouldn't I have similar confidence that you are in error too - especially since I know the flaws in your belief much better than I know the flaws in those others?

Phat writes:

Many claim they have subjective evidence.


There's no such thing.

Phat writes:

I've even had a couple of incidents that I knew were unexplainable.


So have I. Guess what? I don't explain them."God" is not a catchall explanation for the unexplained.

Phat writes:

And before you bring up Santa Claus, everybody knows he is a myth unless you are 4 years old.


Every four-year-old Hindu knows that Jesus is a myth.

Phat writes:

Finally, look at the many professionals who have degrees in Theology and Divinity and Philosophy who earned Doctorates in religious studies. Do you really think they dont believe?


I think they believe in a thousand different mutually-exclusive denominations and deities. Your Appeal to Authority doesn't work any better than yor Appeal to Popularity.

Phat writes:

Was there not anyone who impressed you with honesty and good character?


Of course there were. Do you think there are no Hindus or Muslims or (shudder) Catholics with honesty and good character? Being honest doesn't make them right.

Phat writes:

I sometimes feel as if skeptics and critics think all of Christianity is simply charlatans and fantasy based dreamers.


That's about it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 02-14-2019 1:14 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3372
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 222 of 223 (848735)
02-14-2019 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
02-14-2019 1:14 PM


Re: Again we disagree concerning evidence
Phat writes:

Can you really be confident that you are right and all of the believers in error?

Yes - such is the confidence that comes along with searching for truth using objective evidence.

Many claim they have subjective evidence.

This fact is what points in the direction of having confidence that they are wrong.

If the beliefs just started moments ago: "Wow - did you SEE that???"
-then you have a point. Perhaps the belief is correct.
-correct course of action is to go and investigate

But that's not what's going on.
The beliefs have been in place for thousands of years.
And... nothing. Not any objective evidence to back them up. Just people with "subjective evidence."

We've seen this before - many people having subjective evidence with no objective evidence to back them up:
-sacrifices are required to bring rain
-blood letting is a cure for all ailments
-vaccines give your kid autism
-"Want to know what's great about this time-share?" "Sure, can you show me something?" "No! ...but it's soooooo amazing!!!"

Can you name one thing where millions of people believed in subjective evidence, and when objective evidence came around... they were right?

If not, and I can name many, many examples of the objective evidence showing the "subjective evidence" to be false... that's what gives "confidence" that I am right and all the believers are in error.
That's what confidence means - that's where confidence comes from - where similar situations have happened before, and the same particular outcome occurred.
It's not a guarantee - but it's certainly confidence - much higher confidence then we have for other things like "I'm not going to die on my commute into work tomorrow."

Phat writes:

Evidently, you and the hardcore skeptics are unimpressed with their stories.

I am impressed with the stories.
I'm also impressed with ghost stories.
I'm also impressed with alien stories.
I'm also impressed with selling-the-brooklyn-bridge stories.

I just don't have any confidence in them.
Because that's what experience has taught us for such types of stories.

Is it impossible for God to exist?
Is it impossible for ghosts to exist?
Is it impossible for aliens to walk amongst us?
Is it impossible to buy to the brooklyn bridge for $1?

Not at all.
But I'm pretty darn confident that they are all wishful thinking.

I'm not convinced that it's best for us to teach society that cherished beliefs are a myth.

I'm not convinced either.
But we've tried this - and it doesn't turn out well. A lot of society seems to think that "subjective evidence" is a great idea to apply to other aspects of their lives:
-like gambling
-like "multi-level marketing" scams
-like believing politicians at their word
-like marrying your high-school sweetheart just because "that's what people do" after they've been together for a while

Perhaps it's time to try to aim society away from "subjective evidence."
What are you afraid of in teaching people that "cherished beliefs" are, indeed "cherished beliefs" and not facts?

Perhaps some people need to have the entire world "believe something" so that they can, too.
But, if so - why destroy the entire world (see gambling, multi-level marketing, believing politicians, etc...) just to appease a handful in a tiny, subsection of their lives?
Perhaps there is another way to help these few cope while not handicapping entire societies?

I guess im just puzzled why you alone (with a few others) concluded the way that you did. After all you spent a third of your life in churches. Was there not anyone who impressed you with honesty and good character? I sometimes feel as if skeptics and critics think all of Christianity is simply charlatans and fantasy based dreamers.

My dream is that one day, some day... you will finally move past this false dichotomy you've been trained into holding onto.

Again, for the umpteenth time:

Nobody has a problem with believers who are honest and good people.
Nobody has a problem with believers who are not charlatans and fantasy dreamers.
Nobody has a problem with the vast majority of believers.

There's only a problem when believers attempt to pass their "belief" as "truth."

That's obviously wrong and needs to be stopped.
That is the path of charlatans and fantasy dreamers.
That is the path that "subjective evidence" encourages.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 02-14-2019 1:14 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6618
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 223 of 223 (848736)
02-14-2019 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
02-14-2019 1:14 PM


Re: Again we disagree concerning evidence
Phat writes:

Finally, look at the many professionals who have degrees in Theology and Divinity and Philosophy who earned Doctorates in religious studies. Do you really think they dont believe?

Pretty much 100% of divinity and theology students are believers - or at least that's my experience sharing a flat with one. And what they learn is not what they preach - most believers would call what they teach heresy. I'm surprised they survive.

I guess im just puzzled why you alone (with a few others) concluded the way that you did.

quote:
According to sociologist Phil Zuckerman, broad estimates of those who have an absence of belief in a deity range from 500 to 750 million people worldwide.[1] Other estimates state that there are 200 million to 240 million self-identified atheists worldwide, with China and Russia being major contributors to those figures.[3] According to sociologists Ariela Keysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists).[5]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

As for how people 'conclude the way they do'... multiple reasons but in global terms I doubt the majority conclude anything, they're just brought up that way. Just like you were.

The rest ringo covered and I'm surprised you needed to ask, I mean, we've covered this stuff over and over again but you still ask the same questions. It's The Barrier isn't it?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 02-14-2019 1:14 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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