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Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
Sarah Bellum
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Message 1069 of 1385 (853290)
05-25-2019 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dredge
11-20-2018 8:07 AM


A great deal of knowledge is sought after without a desire for "practical use". Much of that knowledge is later found to be of enormous "practical" use, of course. I'm sure we could all look up examples.

If everybody took the attitude that "practical" is the only measure of the need for knowledge, by now we'd have the most refined stone axes, but nobody would have discovered metals.


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 Message 1 by Dredge, posted 11-20-2018 8:07 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1071 by Dredge, posted 05-26-2019 10:26 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
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Posts: 652
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1257 of 1385 (855967)
06-25-2019 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1071 by Dredge
05-26-2019 10:26 PM


I didn't say that the OP took the attitude that "practical" is the only measure of the need for knowledge. But the OP does begin with "I've been looking for a practical use in applied science for the information..." And you, of course, just wrote, "...no practical yet..."

The idea of a universal common ancestor is a concept in a branch of science with enormous practical applications. If you look it up, you'll find applications to patterns of disease mutation, relative virulence of parasites, handling drug or pesticide resistance, selective breeding ("artificial" selection finds knowledge of "natural" selection useful!), evaluation of possible hazards from genetically modified crops, preservation of endangered species, understanding of gene function (if you know the pattern of descent it helps in learning about genes with still-unknown function), development of biological strains to decompose hazardous materials, genetic algorithms . . .


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 Message 1260 by Dredge, posted 06-26-2019 12:41 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
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Posts: 652
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.4


(2)
Message 1266 of 1385 (856127)
06-27-2019 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1260 by Dredge
06-26-2019 12:41 AM


That's like saying we'd get the same use out of geology if we didn't believe plate tectonics, or the same use out of chemistry if we still believed there were only four elements!

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 Message 1260 by Dredge, posted 06-26-2019 12:41 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1269 by Dredge, posted 06-30-2019 12:48 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
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Posts: 652
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1270 of 1385 (856400)
06-30-2019 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1269 by Dredge
06-30-2019 12:48 AM


You wrote "all this information would have be gained and these uses would have been developed if everyone believed life on earth was 100 years old - which means the Darwinian explanation for the history of life on earth is completely irrelevant to them"

But this is incoherent. It's like saying you could get some use out of modern chemistry while still holding in your mind the idea that there are only four elements because the existence of the periodic table is "completely irrelevant"!

You asked for "a practical use in applied biology for the neo-Darwinian explanation for the history of life on earth."

But in an earlier post I answered this: " If you look it up, you'll find applications to patterns of disease mutation, relative virulence of parasites, handling drug or pesticide resistance, selective breeding ("artificial" selection finds knowledge of "natural" selection useful!), evaluation of possible hazards from genetically modified crops, preservation of endangered species, understanding of gene function (if you know the pattern of descent it helps in learning about genes with still-unknown function), development of biological strains to decompose hazardous materials, genetic algorithms . . ."

(and Bellum has other meanings...)


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 Message 1269 by Dredge, posted 06-30-2019 12:48 AM Dredge has responded

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 Message 1271 by RAZD, posted 06-30-2019 4:24 PM Sarah Bellum has responded
 Message 1274 by Dredge, posted 07-02-2019 12:33 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
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Posts: 652
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 1272 of 1385 (856498)
07-01-2019 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1271 by RAZD
06-30-2019 4:24 PM


An ancestor. She lived in Georgia before the War Between The States..

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Sarah Bellum
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Posts: 652
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1277 of 1385 (856764)
07-02-2019 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1274 by Dredge
07-02-2019 12:33 AM


I've given you answers to your question. You seemed doubtful, so I expanded on those answers.

Is there something you're still not clear about?


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Sarah Bellum
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Posts: 652
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1283 of 1385 (857077)
07-05-2019 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1280 by Dredge
07-04-2019 11:15 PM


I would have to guess at that. Perhaps the fact that we study primates to learn about living creatures, anatomy, the immune system and so forth requires the knowledge of the genetic link? After all, if we are not related we must treat the data from primate studies differently than we do. It's not my area of expertise. In any case, it's all part of a whole, so trying to work with only some of the science while dismissing fundamental principles would lead to the same sort of problems as, for example, trying to use modern chemistry while still holding in your mind the idea that there are only four elements.

Lets not forget, though, that as with the knowledge of whether or not there is water ice on the Moon, or the knowledge of whether or not Herod was the ruler of Palestine at the time Jesus supposedly was born, some knowledge will not put food on the table, find your lost keys or win the hand of the lover you seek. It's still knowledge, even so.


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 Message 1280 by Dredge, posted 07-04-2019 11:15 PM Dredge has responded

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 Message 1297 by Dredge, posted 07-10-2019 1:13 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
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Posts: 652
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 1300 of 1385 (857680)
07-10-2019 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1297 by Dredge
07-10-2019 1:13 AM


Most likely, a dentist doesn't refer to Darwin's work in between taking X-rays and pulling wisdom teeth, though the idea of evolution might be interesting to a dentist wondering why more people are born with fewer wisdom teeth now than in the past.

But then, a dentist's work isn't dealing with patterns of disease mutation, relative virulence of parasites, handling drug or pesticide resistance, selective breeding ("artificial" selection finds knowledge of "natural" selection useful!), evaluation of possible hazards from genetically modified crops, preservation of endangered species, understanding of gene function (if you know the pattern of descent it helps in learning about genes with still-unknown function), development of biological strains to decompose hazardous materials, genetic algorithms or similar areas of science and technology.

Your discussion of chemistry doesn't make any sense. Yes, a chemist could work with the Periodic Table and at the same time try to imagine that those symbols didn't really represent "elements" but merely compounds with various properties. Mercury, for instance, the chemist (alchemist?) might think of as a combination of water and fire, with a little earth in it to give it weight. But a chemist thinking that way would be no different from people working on the tasks described in the previous paragraph trying to hold in their minds the notion that living organisms didn't really evolve.

As for "atheistic beliefs", remember that plenty of religious believers have no problem with the history of life on Earth being one of evolution (variation and natural selection).

To me, it seems more likely that those who believe in Creationism have their reason clouded by their religious beliefs than that those who study science have their reason clouded by their lack of religious beliefs. Especially since, as I mentioned, many don't lack such beliefs.

Finally, when you say, "The Darwinian explanation for the history of life is not 'knowledge' - it is a theory that cannot ever be put to the test" you say something untrue. For example, the idea that birds evolved from dinosaurs can be put to the test. You may not be able to travel back in time to view the generational change, but you can find Archaeopteryx.

If you claim that knowledge about the past isn't knowledge, then you might have an uncomfortable time talking with, for example, archaeologists digging around Jerusalem or Jericho or the Dead Sea.


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 Message 1297 by Dredge, posted 07-10-2019 1:13 AM Dredge has responded

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 Message 1307 by Dredge, posted 07-15-2019 2:59 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
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Posts: 652
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.4


(2)
Message 1301 of 1385 (857681)
07-10-2019 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1299 by Dredge
07-10-2019 1:27 AM


Re: I might have found a site to help in this discussion
Would you at least be willing to concede that the following argument has no validity?

"Proposition X has no practical use so therefore Proposition X is false."


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Sarah Bellum
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Posts: 652
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1317 of 1385 (858147)
07-17-2019 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1307 by Dredge
07-15-2019 2:59 AM


Your last post was a bit confused. You're willing to say that living creatures evolved. You're fine with the, "known biological mechanisms" of evolution that you concede have a lot of practical uses. You even agree that birds evolved from dinosaurs. Is your problem with the, "practical use in applied science for the Darwinian interpretation of the history of life on earth" a dislike for the fact that birds evolved from dinosaurs because you can't make a quick buck off the fact that birds evolved from dinosaurs?

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Sarah Bellum
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Posts: 652
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1338 of 1385 (859246)
07-30-2019 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1307 by Dredge
07-15-2019 2:59 AM


Your last post was a bit confused. You're willing to say that living creatures evolved. You're fine with the, "known biological mechanisms" of evolution that you concede have a lot of practical uses. You even agree that birds evolved from dinosaurs. Is your problem with the, "practical use in applied science for the Darwinian interpretation of the history of life on earth" a dislike for the fact that birds evolved from dinosaurs because you can't make a quick buck off the fact that birds evolved from dinosaurs?

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 Message 1307 by Dredge, posted 07-15-2019 2:59 AM Dredge has responded

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 Message 1344 by Dredge, posted 08-05-2019 3:37 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
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Posts: 652
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1345 of 1385 (860029)
08-05-2019 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1344 by Dredge
08-05-2019 3:37 AM


Maybe if I did drink before reading your posts they would look a bit less inane?

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Sarah Bellum
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Posts: 652
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1372 of 1385 (869404)
12-29-2019 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1368 by Faith
11-14-2019 9:17 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
But one could say, about any historical topic, that it's just an "interpretation" since we cannot travel back in time to "witness" it.

On the other hand, you can't "see" an electron, nor "observe" the molten core of the Earth. But we may still learn a great deal about such things.


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 Message 1368 by Faith, posted 11-14-2019 9:17 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1373 by Faith, posted 12-29-2019 10:17 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
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Posts: 652
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1379 of 1385 (869413)
12-30-2019 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1373 by Faith
12-29-2019 10:17 PM


Re: The unwitnessed (prehistoric) past
That is the point, isn't it? There are no "witnesses" to such things as beta decay or the Mohorovičić Discontinuity. There are only "measurable effects in many other phenomena in the present". I described such effects in my original post
https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&m=855972#m855972

Some things cannot be "witnessed" directly because they are too small (quarks) or too far away (pulsars) or are blocked from our view (the core of the Earth) or happened in the past (the Yellowstone eruption) or are invisible (radio waves) or happen too quickly (beta decay) or are otherwise not directly in our range of sight (or hearing, taste, touch or smell). That doesn't mean we cannot learn about those things.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1373 by Faith, posted 12-29-2019 10:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1380 by Faith, posted 12-30-2019 10:41 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 652
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1382 of 1385 (869424)
12-30-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1380 by Faith
12-30-2019 10:41 AM


Re: The unwitnessed (prehistoric) past
Perhaps on a general evolution thread rather than the flood thread?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1380 by Faith, posted 12-30-2019 10:41 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1383 by Faith, posted 12-30-2019 11:20 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
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