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Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1318
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 181 of 1385 (849740)
03-20-2019 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by ringo
03-17-2019 2:24 PM


Re: Don't creationists have a universal common ancestor too?
ringo writes:

The topic is "practical use", not "depend on".

More desperation ... and sorry, you're wrong. It's the same thing. If any the practical uses mentioned in the post 104 "depend on" the concept of UCA, then those uses are a practical use for the concept of UCA. Come on, it ain't rocket science.

Unfortunately for the poster involved (LNA), there is no connection between the practical uses he mentioned and the concept of UCA.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by ringo, posted 03-17-2019 2:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by ringo, posted 03-20-2019 12:48 PM Dredge has responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1318
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 182 of 1385 (849741)
03-20-2019 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Tanypteryx
03-17-2019 2:30 PM


Tanypteryx writes:

I never said I used the concept of UCA in my work.

In that case, what was the point of you telling me this (from #131)?:

"You may not like it and you may not believe it but we are working out the evolutionary history and relatedness of many groups of insects. We are figuring out recent common ancestors and working our way back. We talk about evolution continuously and it allows us to start making predictions about different possible management strategies. Knowing what evolutionary processes and mechanisms have been important in a species history gives us valuable clues to possible parisitoid controls we could employ."

there is a distinct shortage of YEC biologists.

Did you know that there exist professors of biology who are YECs? So much for the importance of evolutionary theory in biology!

The observable facts and principles of biology are the Theory of Evolution.

W..Wh..What? You're a professional biologist and you think the theory of evolution is no more than a collection of observable facts and principles? Wow.
Look, this is how it works: Scientists took certain observable facts and principles of biology and formed the theory of evolution based on them. So obviously, ToE is more than just a collection of observable facts and principles.

You have been repeatedly told that the observable facts and principles of biology is the Theory of Evolution and none of it depends on UCA.

1. As explained above, the observable facts and principles of biology are not the theory of evolution, but only part of it.

2. I'm curious - what is your definition of "the theory of evolution"?

3. So which evolutionary theory have you found a practical use for in your work?

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-17-2019 2:30 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-20-2019 12:30 PM Dredge has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8200
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(3)
Message 183 of 1385 (849742)
03-20-2019 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Dredge
03-20-2019 1:20 AM


Dredge writes:

The "theory of evolution that explains those fossils"? There is no such thing as science is incapable of explaining the fossil record.

I see, so all this huffing and puffing about UCA is utterly irrelevant as the actual problem you have is your inability to accept the established scientific theory that predicts it (or something like it).

Let me guess, it contradicts your religious beliefs?

I see you've now changed from requiring a use for the UCA (dumb) to practical uses for evolutionary theory as a whole - better but still dumb, as it need have no practical value at all to be never-the-less true. Knowledge has no obligation to be practiical.

As it happens a 5 second google and google scholar search produces thousands of results for practical applications for the theory of evolution. Here's the first that popped up

quote:
Abstract

Evolutionary principles are now routinely incorporated into medicine and agriculture. Examples include the design of treatments that slow the evolution of resistance by weeds, pests, and pathogens, and the design of breeding programs that maximize crop yield or quality.

Evolutionary principles are also increasingly incorporated into conservation biology, natural resource management, and environmental science. Examples include the protection of small and isolated populations from inbreeding depression, the identification of key traits involved in adaptation to climate change, the design of harvesting regimes that minimize unwanted life-history evolution, and the setting of conservation priorities based on populations, species, or communities that harbor the greatest evolutionary diversity and potential.

The adoption of evolutionary principles has proceeded somewhat independently in these different fields, even though the underlying fundamental concepts are the same. We explore these fundamental concepts under four main themes: variation, selection, connectivity, and eco-evolutionary dynamics. Within each theme, we present several key evolutionary principles and illustrate their use in addressing applied problems.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3352551/

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Dredge, posted 03-20-2019 1:20 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Dredge, posted 03-21-2019 3:10 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 205 by Dredge, posted 03-21-2019 4:11 AM Tangle has responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1318
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 184 of 1385 (849743)
03-20-2019 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Tanypteryx
03-17-2019 2:30 PM


I have never thought UCA was a "unifying concept" or a fact or essential scientific information

Really? Haven't you ever heard rhis: "Evolution is the unifying theory of biology"! Where have you been?

or a fact or essential scientific information

So most biologist believe biology can do without the theory of evolution? Ya coulda fooled me! LIttle do they know that ToE is just a useless story and that biologists really can do without it.

Biologists haven't been brainwashed by ToE ... that's so funny!

nd I did not say anything about UCA or claim any value

Okay, so when you said "Someone sees value in what we are learning", you were referring to discoveries in genetics? Golly gee, no kidding?

Tanypteryx writes:

Rare is the creationist who realizes that this is creationist bullshit


It is really? In that case, please explain which observable fact or principle of biology would not exist without the theory of evolution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-17-2019 2:30 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-20-2019 1:03 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5985
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 185 of 1385 (849744)
03-20-2019 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Dredge
03-20-2019 1:28 AM


Re: Name one.
Therefore you would agree with me that evolutionary theory has provided no practical uses at all in applied science ... no?

No.

Therefore I know you are a troll whose claims are not worth debating.

You spout nothing but typical creationist BS deserving of nothing but anti-theist rants.

And if I hadn't emphasized the point enough to get it through your typical creationist BS brain, your worthless claim is nothing but a desperate attempt to attack evolution in a vain attempt to emotionally shore-up your errant beliefs in religious majik at which you fail miserably.

To your credit you did get something right. I am not just atheist. I am quite firmly anti-theist. And I rant. Congratulations, you have uncovered another great truth in the universe.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Dredge, posted 03-20-2019 1:28 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Dredge, posted 03-20-2019 3:47 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1318
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 186 of 1385 (849745)
03-20-2019 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Tanypteryx
03-17-2019 2:41 PM


Tanypteryx writes:

Well, one benefit is it sure makes you insecure.

Nice try, but no cigar - evolution doesn't rule out the existence of God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-17-2019 2:41 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by dwise1, posted 03-20-2019 11:27 AM Dredge has responded
 Message 190 by Tangle, posted 03-20-2019 11:38 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 197 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-20-2019 1:14 PM Dredge has responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1318
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 187 of 1385 (849746)
03-20-2019 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Tangle
03-18-2019 3:49 AM


Fascinating, but what does this have to do with the thread?

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Tangle, posted 03-18-2019 3:49 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1318
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 188 of 1385 (849747)
03-20-2019 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by AZPaul3
03-20-2019 3:29 AM


Re: Name one.
Deary, deary me ... YET ANOTHER God-phobic, mouth-foaming rant ... after which I think I can safely assume that you can't provide an example of a practical use for evolutionary theory. Furthermore, it sounds like this fact is a bitter pill for you to swallow.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by AZPaul3, posted 03-20-2019 3:29 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by NosyNed, posted 03-20-2019 12:22 PM Dredge has responded
 Message 202 by AZPaul3, posted 03-20-2019 9:19 PM Dredge has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 189 of 1385 (849752)
03-20-2019 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Dredge
03-20-2019 3:31 AM


... - evolution doesn't rule out the existence of God.

Of course it doesn't! It never has! Yet virtually every creationist I've encountered over the past three decades have held staunchly to the belief that evolution does rule out the existence of God. They insist upon that belief so strongly, that it has defined the discussion with non-creationists who end up accepting those creationists' claim at face value. So the only people who belief that evolution rules out the existence of God are the vast majority of creationists and those non-creationists who have been fooled into accepting the creationists' false premises.

Does this mean that you have broken ranks with your fellow creationists? That you have realized the basic fact that there is no conflict between evolution and divine creation? The simple fact is that the only thing that evolution conflicts with is specific religious beliefs that it does conflict with God.

So if you are not deluded by the fundamental creationist false premise, then what's your beef?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Dredge, posted 03-20-2019 3:31 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Dredge, posted 03-23-2019 2:02 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8200
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 190 of 1385 (849753)
03-20-2019 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Dredge
03-20-2019 3:31 AM


Dredge writes:

evolution doesn't rule out the existence of God.

As far as I'm aware, absolutely nothing rules out the possible existence of god. There's nothing special about the ToE in that regard.

The hoohah is only about the fact that the ToE contradicts the Christian bible - if taken literally. Millions of Catholics and Anglicans don't seem to mind, it's only the weirdos that do.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Dredge, posted 03-20-2019 3:31 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
NosyNed
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 8963
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


(2)
Message 191 of 1385 (849754)
03-20-2019 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Dredge
03-20-2019 3:47 AM


Pills
Bitter pill? Every pamphlet with antibiotics warns you to finish the whole series. That is evolutionary theory in action.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Dredge, posted 03-20-2019 3:47 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Dredge, posted 03-23-2019 1:58 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2571
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 192 of 1385 (849755)
03-20-2019 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Dredge
03-20-2019 2:47 AM


Dredge writes:

Tanypteryx writes:

I never said I used the concept of UCA in my work.


In that case, what was the point of you telling me this (from #131)?:

"You may not like it and you may not believe it but we are working out the evolutionary history and relatedness of many groups of insects. We are figuring out recent common ancestors and working our way back. We talk about evolution continuously and it allows us to start making predictions about different possible management strategies. Knowing what evolutionary processes and mechanisms have been important in a species history gives us valuable clues to possible parisitoid controls we could employ."

Gosh, your reading comprehension needs a boost.

UCA is not the theory of evolution, no matter how many times you repeat your mistaken assertion that it is.

Dredge writes:

Tanypteryx writes:

there is a distinct shortage of YEC biologists.


Did you know that there exist professors of biology who are YECs? So much for the importance of evolutionary theory in biology!

Can you name any? And where do they teach?

Like I said, there are not many. I feel sorry for their students if they try to work in any biological fields. Like you, they will have real scientists doubting their competence their whole career.

Dredge writes:

Tanypteryx writes:

The observable facts and principles of biology are the Theory of Evolution.

W..Wh..What? You're a professional biologist and you think the theory of evolution is no more than a collection of observable facts and principles? Wow.

Wow indeed. I realize you didn't know this, but a scientific theory is based on the facts we know, not speculations, wishes, or beliefs.

Dredge writes:

Look, this is how it works: Scientists took certain observable facts and principles of biology and formed the theory of evolution based on them. So obviously, ToE is more than just a collection of observable facts and principles.

Nope. This is incorrect. The Theory of Evolution includes all known facts and observations of biology. It is not obvious at all that it includes more. When new discoveries in biology are made, the theory is modified to include them. That's how science works. I am unsurprised you didn't know that.

Dredge writes:

Tanypteryx writes:

You have been repeatedly told that the observable facts and principles of biology is the Theory of Evolution and none of it depends on UCA.

1. As explained above, the observable facts and principles of biology are not the theory of evolution, but only part of it.

Explained? You made some erroneous assertions. What do you think is the other part?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Dredge, posted 03-20-2019 2:47 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Dredge, posted 03-24-2019 2:30 AM Tanypteryx has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 193 of 1385 (849756)
03-20-2019 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Dredge
03-20-2019 1:40 AM


Dredge writes:

1. Where did I say I'm dropping the concept of UCA from the discussion?


I didn't say you dropped anything. I said you changed the question from the one that people have been answering.

Dredge writes:

2. The concept of UCA implies evolutionary theory.


But evolutionary theory doesn't necessarily imply UCA. Even if you could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was no use for UCA, that would not falsify UCA. And even if you could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was no UCA, that would not negate evolutionary theory.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Dredge, posted 03-20-2019 1:40 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Dredge, posted 03-23-2019 2:12 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 194 of 1385 (849757)
03-20-2019 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Dredge
03-20-2019 2:10 AM


Dredge writes:

How has "looking at how climate change may have affected evolution in the past" provided a practical use today? You made the claim, now you need to back it up with supporting evidence - to wit: a specific example.


Climate change is a specific example.

Dredge writes:

You're implying that I said ALL evolutionary biology is useful, which is not what I said at all.


I know. You said the opposite. I'm pointing out that that's nonsense.

Scientists do use evolutionary theory and UCA. If they use it, it's useful to THEM whether you think it's useful or not. If somebody thinks tobacco is useful in his work and he uses it, your opinion on its usefulness is worthless.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Dredge, posted 03-20-2019 2:10 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Dredge, posted 03-23-2019 2:17 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 195 of 1385 (849758)
03-20-2019 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Dredge
03-20-2019 2:16 AM


Re: Don't creationists have a universal common ancestor too?
Dredge writes:

ringo writes:

The topic is "practical use", not "depend on".


It's the same thing.

Don't be silly. I can think of a practical use for potato chips. That doesn't mean I depend on them.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Dredge, posted 03-20-2019 2:16 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Dredge, posted 03-23-2019 3:12 AM ringo has responded

  
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