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Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
Dredge
Member
Posts: 778
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 91 of 217 (849403)
03-08-2019 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by edge
11-23-2018 2:03 PM


edge writes:

Is this another hit-and-run OP? Or are you going to play out this as before?


Je ne sais pas. Non lo so.

You are not going to gain any more traction here than in the other forums you post.

???

First of all, you are under the mistaken notion that all science must be directly applicable to whatever subset of applied science you care to abuse.

1. Wrong. Theoretical science can prove invaluable.
2. Straw man.

Then you assume that you can make demands of us that we satisfy YOUR personal criteria for usefulness.

Er, no - I can't find "my personal criteria" in the OP. The OP actually asks for usefulness according to applied science.

Then you require us to play in your sandbox only, and ignore the fact that YEC/ID has no such application in applied sciences.

1. Irrelevant to the post.

2. I am not a YEC and I have never mentioned ID.

3. YEC/ID are religious beliefs - you want me to provide practical scientific applications for religious beliefs?

No one really cares what your opinion is. You are trolling.

Let me guess ... here you were thinking that nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of your cherished belief in UCA, but it seems that nothing in all of applied science depends on your UCA belief system - and you find this hard to accept?

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by edge, posted 11-23-2018 2:03 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by edge, posted 03-09-2019 5:17 PM Dredge has responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 778
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 92 of 217 (849404)
03-08-2019 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Tanypteryx
03-07-2019 12:43 AM


Re: Name one.
Tanypteryx writes:

Do you know why it's blue?


Yes. But it's irrelevant to my point and do you really want to discuss something we all learnt about in highschool?

Understanding how light and elements in the atmosphere interact might have practical applications in spectrographic chemical analysis, but you are a purist and the sole arbiter of what is practical in applied science, or any science it seems.

You're digressing. I said I can't think of a practical use for knowing that the sky is blue - can you?

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-07-2019 12:43 AM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 778
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 93 of 217 (849406)
03-08-2019 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by AZPaul3
03-07-2019 4:43 AM


AZPaul3 writes:

So, ok, no one here can meet your unreasonable requirements of an example.


How do the confines of applied science amount to "unreasonable requirements". Applied science is the most important sphere of science and it is only sphere of science that really matters. No one reduced suffering or cured disease or fed hungry mouths with a theory, esp not one of the most useless theories ever - UCA.

Do we have to care about your errant opinions?

I can answer your question, as I don't know what you mean by "your errant opinions".

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2019 4:43 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by AZPaul3, posted 03-08-2019 2:02 PM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 778
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 94 of 217 (849407)
03-08-2019 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Tangle
03-07-2019 1:43 AM


Re: Name one.
qs writes:

Knowledge is knowledge. It doesn't need a practical use.


I agree.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2019 1:43 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Tangle, posted 03-08-2019 2:45 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 778
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 95 of 217 (849408)
03-08-2019 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
03-07-2019 10:54 AM


ringo writes:

it doesn't need a practical use to be true


I know.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 03-07-2019 10:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 03-08-2019 10:44 AM Dredge has responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 778
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 96 of 217 (849409)
03-08-2019 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by JonF
03-07-2019 11:25 AM


Re: Name one.
JonF writes:

That bans all of science from the discussion.


Really? I was under the impression "science" actually includes "applied science".
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by JonF, posted 03-07-2019 11:25 AM JonF has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6675
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 97 of 217 (849411)
03-08-2019 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Dredge
03-08-2019 1:07 AM


Re: Name one.
Dredge writes:

I agree.

So what's your beef?

UCA is simply a derived conclusion of the ToE, it's just an interesting spin-off of the theory, it doesn't need a practical use and it's not something anybody spends any time on.

And, by-the-way, it has nothing at all to do with atheism.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Dredge, posted 03-08-2019 1:07 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3393
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(4)
Message 98 of 217 (849413)
03-08-2019 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Dredge
03-07-2019 11:53 PM


Dredge writes:

Unlike useless stories about UCA, transistors are eminently useful in a practical sense and also have also proven useful in applied science.

Transistors are only "eminently useful in a practical sense and have also proven useful in applied science" within the realm of electronic devices.

Go ahead, try it.
Can you think of any usefulness of a transistor at all outside of electronics?

That's what you're doing with "useless stories of UCA."

Sure - they may very well be useless "outside the realm of evolutionary theory."
But, who cares? That's not where UCA is supposed to be useful.

UCA is supposed to be useful within the realm of evolutionary theory. And it is. Very useful.
Just as transistors are only useful within the realm of electronic devices. Very useful.

The point is that your limit of "outside the realm of evolutionary theory" is a silly, ridiculous limit - and it only makes you look foolish.
As foolish as someone running around saying "Hey! Transistors are USELESS outside electronic devices! Why are you all using transistors!?? They're USELESS!!!"

Sure. Useless. Whatever you say, buddy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Dredge, posted 03-07-2019 11:53 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Dredge, posted 03-13-2019 12:17 AM Stile has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 99 of 217 (849417)
03-08-2019 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Dredge
03-08-2019 1:11 AM


Dredge writes:

ringo writes:

it doesn't need a practical use to be true


I know.

Then why are you wasting time with this thread?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Dredge, posted 03-08-2019 1:11 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-08-2019 10:57 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 110 by Dredge, posted 03-13-2019 12:22 AM ringo has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


(2)
Message 100 of 217 (849418)
03-08-2019 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by ringo
03-08-2019 10:44 AM


He's a creationist. He doesn't have any good arguments, but he doesn't want to stop arguing.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 03-08-2019 10:44 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1994
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 101 of 217 (849419)
03-08-2019 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Dr Adequate
03-08-2019 10:57 AM


He's a creationist. He doesn't have any good arguments, but he doesn't want to stop arguing.

And he's pissed that all those horrible atheists don't believe in his imaginary god.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-08-2019 10:57 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3810
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 102 of 217 (849421)
03-08-2019 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Dredge
03-08-2019 1:02 AM


How do the confines of applied science amount to "unreasonable requirements".

As Stile said, you're taking UCA outside the discipline it is intended to inform and insisting that since it has marginal to no utility in traffic control systems (an applied science) it has no utility anywhere.

Typical religious logic.

No one reduced suffering or cured disease or fed hungry mouths with a theory, esp not one of the most useless theories ever - UCA.

Now you're talking about your religion. Useless to society, harmful to critical thinking and damn deadly to living things everywhere.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Dredge, posted 03-08-2019 1:02 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 4466
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 103 of 217 (849428)
03-09-2019 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Dredge
03-08-2019 12:32 AM


1. Wrong. Theoretical science can prove invaluable.

So, something value may be of no use?

2. Straw man.

Okay, then, what is your point?

Er, no - I can't find "my personal criteria" in the OP. The OP actually asks for usefulness according to applied science.

Then you agree that common ancestry is useful in pure science, yes?

Again, I don't see the reason for you to make this point.

1. Irrelevant to the post.

2. I am not a YEC and I have never mentioned ID.

3. YEC/ID are religious beliefs - you want me to provide practical scientific applications for religious beliefs?


Once again, in this case, I see no reason for you to make the point in the OP. You are welcome to your opinion but it is without effect.

Let me guess ... here you were thinking that nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of your cherished belief in UCA, ...

Then you guess wrongly. I am not a biologist and that is not my first impression of the argument.

To compound that, it is not MY belief, nor do I cherish it.

Your insinuations tell me that you have a motive for your OP. Why not just come out and say it?

... but it seems that nothing in all of applied science depends on your UCA belief system - and you find this hard to accept?

What is there to accept? Your statement is so watered down that anyone could agree with it.

It is your opinion that common ancestry has no direct practical application in "applied science".

So what?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Dredge, posted 03-08-2019 12:32 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Dredge, posted 03-13-2019 12:29 AM edge has responded
 Message 112 by Dredge, posted 03-13-2019 12:40 AM edge has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1401
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 104 of 217 (849430)
03-09-2019 7:20 PM


Don't creationists have a universal common ancestor too?
The sames creationists say there was divergence and "evolution".

The same creationists accept DNA as real.

Genetic understanding is relevant to deciding which people are more likely to suffer from whatever type of disease.

Genetic understanding is also relevant to getting the best treatment.

Now, the question:

The question is whether "macro" evolutionary understanding of DNA comparisons can help clue a scientist in on fruitful areas of disease research, and in a way that creationists might be inclined to avoid.

Look at the issue of using animal research to help find cures to human diseases.

(When it comes to animal research, we can rule out the idea of most creationists having any ethical concerns, so I will lay that issue aside)

Whales get HIV, I believe. Rats and Chimps have some useful "disease research" functions.

Does the macro-evolutionary understanding cause more and better research to necessarily happen?


Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Dredge, posted 03-13-2019 12:52 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1401
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 105 of 217 (849431)
03-09-2019 7:45 PM


I am not sure what the argument would be from a creationist.
I put this into google:

disease research mice dna humans

(computer won't let me type words above "I put this into google" or hit "Enter" to drop the line to a lower horizon in message)

(I was going to start this message by asking for the creationist understanding of cross-specie applied research relative to diseases)

quote:

Importance of Mouse Genome - National Human Genome Research ...
https://www.genome.gov/10001345/importance-of-mouse-genome/
Overall, mice and humans share virtually the same set of genes. ... mimic in mice the effect of DNA alterations that occur in human diseases and carefully study ...

People also ask
How closely related are mice and humans?

What percentage of DNA do humans share with mice?

Why are mice a good model for studying human genes?

What percentage of DNA do humans share with fruit flies?

Mouse Genetics - The mouse as a model for human disease.
https://www.jax.org/personalized-medicine/why-mouse-genetics
The laboratory mouse is a powerful tool that scientists use to model human diseases and conditions in the search for better treatments and cures for ...

Why mice are the best candidates for research | Inside Science
https://www.insidescience.org/video/why-mice-are-best-candidates-research
Video for disease research mice dna humans▶ 2:59
Oct 30, 2017 - Uploaded by Inside Science
... a huge impact on science research. Mice make excellent models for human disease because parts of ...

New comprehensive view of the mouse genome finds many ... - NIH
https://www.nih.gov/.../new-comprehensive-view-mouse-genome-finds-many-similari...
Nov 19, 2014 - Mouse next to an illustration of DNA. ... This allows us to study human disease by studying those aspects of mouse biology that reflect human ...

Comparing the Mouse and Human Genomes | National Institutes of ...
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research.../comparing-mouse-human-genomes
Dec 8, 2014 - Specific DNA sequence differences linked to diseases in humans often ... importance of using mouse models to study certain human diseases.

Why use the mouse in research? | Facts | yourgenome.org
https://www.yourgenome.org/facts/why-use-the-mouse-in-research
Mar 3, 2017 - Now scientists use mice to simulate human genetic disorders? in order to study their development and test new therapies. As a scientific tool, ...

Of mice and men Story The mouse is closely related to humans with a ...
https://www.yourgenome.org/stories/of-mice-and-men
Mar 3, 2017 - The sequence of the mouse genome? was published in 2002. ... As a result, researchers have been able to develop thousands of mouse strains with mutations? that mirror those seen in human genetic disease? ... In one method the foreign DNA is introduced directly via a fine needle into mouse eggs that ...

The Use of Animal Models in Studying Genetic Disease | Learn ...
https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/the-use-of-animal-models-in-studying-855
Today, scientists are creating models of human genetic disease using mice, flies, ... Also, animal models are often preferable for experimental disease research ... or by using a retroviral vector to insert the transgene into an organism's DNA.

Animals That Share Human DNA Sequences | Education - Seattle PI
https://education.seattlepi.com › K-12



This is important because mice have been used in laboratories as experimental animals for research into human disease processes for years. Mice are currently ...
Replies to this message:
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