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Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1131
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1156 of 1249 (853947)
06-03-2019 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1089 by RAZD
05-28-2019 6:53 AM


Re: aliens-did-it is not a scientific theory
RAZD writes:

unlike the ToE which is falsifiable


How do you falsify ToE?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1089 by RAZD, posted 05-28-2019 6:53 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1160 by RAZD, posted 06-03-2019 11:33 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2223
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 1157 of 1249 (853948)
06-03-2019 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1154 by Dredge
06-03-2019 1:00 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
You’re a professional biologist and you claim to “know how macroevolution occurs”, yet you are clueless as to how you would breed a mammal from a reptile?

Why do you think macroevolution is related to breeding? You don't seem to know anything about macroevolution.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1154 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2019 1:00 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1185 by Dredge, posted 06-05-2019 2:44 AM Tanypteryx has responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2223
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 1158 of 1249 (853950)
06-03-2019 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1153 by Dredge
06-03-2019 12:58 AM


Re: Progressive Creation and Aliens (oh my) - no predictive ability - take 2
I appreciate that, as an atheist, you have no choice but to believe the Darwinist narrative

I have no idea what you are talking about here. What is the Darwinist narrative? And what's it got to do with atheists?

even if creatures appear out of nowhere in the fossil record. In a thousand years' time, atheists will still be using this excuse - "the fossil record is incomplete!"

Well, those atheists are persistent.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1153 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2019 12:58 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
edge
Member
Posts: 4605
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 1159 of 1249 (853970)
06-03-2019 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1155 by Dredge
06-03-2019 1:19 AM


Re: YEC vs OEC
Haven’t I already answered this question? For your sake, I will reiterate: I believe my “aliens” theory is the best SCIENTIFIC explanation for the fossil record, according to the parameters set by modern science – ie, methodological naturalism.

No that doesn't answer my question. I asked why you defend a theory as the best scientific explanation when you don't believe it. That does not lend a whole lot of credence. In fact, it makes your argument a strawman.

I would just as soon argue that the theory of evolution is the best scientific theory because I DO believe that the evidence supports it. Arguably, that makes my theory more valid than yours.

And I haven't even got into the lack of evidence for such alien intervention which makes it NOT scientific.

However, since I believe there is more to reality than methodological naturalism, I don’t believe my “aliens” theory is the best explanation for the fossil record (notice how I didn’t say “the best SCIENTIFIC explanation”).

So this renders neither of your two theories as scientific and shows that you are just trolling this board. Is that the real reason for defending something you don't believe in?

That's fine with me, but I'll go with the evidence for now.

So I have two explanations for the fossil record, depending on which “game” I’m playing. Are you familiar with the term, “Horses for courses”?

That is an apt description of the situation. You are playing games.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1155 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2019 1:19 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1184 by Dredge, posted 06-05-2019 2:38 AM edge has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19869
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 1160 of 1249 (853971)
06-03-2019 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1156 by Dredge
06-03-2019 1:24 AM


Re: aliens-did-it is not a scientific theory
RAZD writes:

unlike the ToE which is falsifiable


How do you falsify ToE?

Several ways. This is an amusingly worn old PRATT. See Talk Origins Pratt List
Claim Claim CA211:

quote:
Any fact can be fit into the theory of evolution. Therefore, evolution is not falsifiable and is not a proper scientific theory.

Source:

Morris, Henry M. 1985. Scientific Creationism. Green Forest, AR: Master Books, pp. 6-7.

Response:

  1. There are many conceivable lines of evidence that could falsify evolution. For example:
    • a static fossil record;
    • true chimeras, that is, organisms that combined parts from several different and diverse lineages (such as mermaids and centaurs) and which are not explained by lateral gene transfer, which transfers relatively small amounts of DNA between lineages, or symbiosis, where two whole organisms come together;
    • a mechanism that would prevent mutations from accumulating;
    • observations of organisms being created.

  2. This claim, coming from creationists, is absurd, since almost all creationism is nothing more than (unsubstantiated) claims that evolution has been falsified.

Finding a fossil that is out of place for the spacial/temporal matrix -- ie one that has no nearby parent populations in time and space to evolve from: a rabbit in the cambrian is a common example.

Finding a genetic genome that doesn't fit the nested hierarchies predicted by evolution.

Note that the perception that "Any fact can be fit into the theory of evolution" is due to all the known information/facts currently fitting the theory of evolution -- strong evidence that the theory is either correct or very near to correct. This gives us high confidence in the accuracy of the theory.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : note


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1156 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2019 1:24 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19869
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 1161 of 1249 (853972)
06-03-2019 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1152 by Dredge
06-03-2019 12:54 AM


Re: aliens-did-it is not a scientific theory
RAZD writes:

it doesn't appear to be falsifiable


Okay, so how do you falsify the theory that

"Macroevolution = Microevolutions + Time" ?

See Message 1160

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1152 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2019 12:54 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7882
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 1162 of 1249 (853996)
06-03-2019 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1147 by Dredge
06-02-2019 3:13 AM


Re: aliens-did-it is not a scientific theory
Dredge writes:

So, you can demonstrate this it's impossible for genetic engineering to produuce a phylogenetic signal?

I can show that genetic engineering can produce any pattern of similarities and differences. Evolution can only produce one pattern of similarities and differences, and that is the pattern we see. That makes evolution the better explanation.

Btw, is a phylogeneitic signal detectable in the fossil record?

Absolutely. The same pattern of similarities and differences seen in living species is also seen in the fossil record.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1147 by Dredge, posted 06-02-2019 3:13 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7882
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 1163 of 1249 (853997)
06-03-2019 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1139 by Dredge
06-02-2019 1:07 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Dredge writes:

I talking about what fossils tell us - they tell us WHAT happened, not HOW it happened. Science cannot determine HOW the history of life unfolded; it can only guess.

That's completely false. The matching phylogenies at the morphological and genetic level tell us the how: evolutionary mechanisms. Phylogenies are the fingerprint of random mutations, selection, drift, speciation, and vertical inheritance, and that fingerprint is all over the distribution of characteristics in living and fossil species as well as the genomes of living species.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1139 by Dredge, posted 06-02-2019 1:07 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1183 by Dredge, posted 06-05-2019 2:22 AM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7882
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 1164 of 1249 (853998)
06-03-2019 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1155 by Dredge
06-03-2019 1:19 AM


Re: YEC vs OEC
Dredge writes:

I believe my “aliens” theory is the best SCIENTIFIC explanation for the fossil record,

You would need to show how your theory predicts the observed distribution of characteristics. You have yet to do that. The theory of evolution does predict what features should and should not be found together and why, but your theory does not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1155 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2019 1:19 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Meddle
Member
Posts: 171
From: Scotland
Joined: 05-08-2006


(4)
Message 1165 of 1249 (854001)
06-03-2019 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1153 by Dredge
06-03-2019 12:58 AM


Re: Progressive Creation and Aliens (oh my) - no predictive ability - take 2
Those poor little trilobites: They gaze up from the fossil beds asking, "Where did I come from?"

Well it could have been something like Keretsa brutoni which dates to 555 Ma (just scroll down to page 131, don't worry it starts on page 127).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1153 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2019 12:58 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
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edge
Member
Posts: 4605
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 1166 of 1249 (854002)
06-03-2019 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1165 by Meddle
06-03-2019 9:51 PM


Re: Progressive Creation and Aliens (oh my) - no predictive ability - take 2
Well it could have been something like Keretsa brutoni which dates to 555 Ma (just scroll down to page 131, don't worry it starts on page 127).

Almost exactly as one might have predicted as a precursor to Cambrian arthropods.

Good find.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1165 by Meddle, posted 06-03-2019 9:51 PM Meddle has not yet responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1131
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1167 of 1249 (854005)
06-04-2019 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1149 by AZPaul3
06-02-2019 4:47 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
AZPaul3 writes:

This YEC trope has been around forever. It was an intellectually vacuous argument decades ago and is downright stupid now.


I’m not surprised others have noticed the same thing – it seems to be a fundamental and obvious contradiction. Btw, you haven’t answered my question: If the THEORY of evolution is “true”, why don’t you call it the FACT of evolution?
Furthermore, it’s my understanding that a scientific theory is never “true”, but is “validated” according the evidence in its favour.

So first you get a population of amniotes which evolve into the synapsids, and the sauropsids. The synapsids begat the Eupelycosaurs who begat the sphenacodontians who then begat the Sphenacodontids who then begat the Therapsids who finally begat the mammals. And at each begat we're talking millions of years of microevolution with lots of intermediate begats in between each of those.

Sorry, but you haven’t told me anything useful in terms of a breeding program. If you have an amniote, for example, how do you breed it to evolve into a synapsid?


Dog breeders have experimented with inbreeding simply to see what will happen and what weird mutations they can come up with. In other words, they have used every trick in the book to change the morphology of dogs – and what they have found is, the further genetics are pushed the more harmful mutations arise, thus limiting how far breeding can go. This fact contradicts your Darwinist fantasy that a dog can eventually be bred into a non-dog.

Well, you see, Dredge, dog breeders are not looking to breed a non-dog. They want to breed only a specific type of dog with a highly restrictive set of features. So they inbreed closely related animals which restricts the resultant gene pool for that breed leading to deformities. Artificial selection does that.

You live in a dream world. Try and bred a dog into a non-dog and see what happens – you will end in the same genetic “dead-end” that thousands of years of dog breeding has – ie, a drastically less-diverse population riddled with harmful mutations. All you will end up “evolving” is sick, weak, unfit dogs!

But hey, I understand that an atheist has no choice but to believe that evolution is responsible for the fossil record, despite the reality-denying absurdity of that position.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1149 by AZPaul3, posted 06-02-2019 4:47 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1172 by AZPaul3, posted 06-04-2019 4:12 AM Dredge has responded
 Message 1175 by Pressie, posted 06-04-2019 8:48 AM Dredge has responded
 Message 1180 by Taq, posted 06-04-2019 1:38 PM Dredge has responded
 Message 1181 by Theodoric, posted 06-04-2019 2:03 PM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1131
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1168 of 1249 (854006)
06-04-2019 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1149 by AZPaul3
06-02-2019 4:47 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
AZPaul3 writes:

You are a YEC. And a rather dumb one at that.


1. No, as I've pointed out many times, I'm not a YEC.

2. For someone with a fragile, eggshell mind and an IQ of 9, I think I'm doing alright (Did you know it only took me ten years to complete seven years of primary school?)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1149 by AZPaul3, posted 06-02-2019 4:47 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1173 by AZPaul3, posted 06-04-2019 4:18 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1131
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1169 of 1249 (854007)
06-04-2019 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1150 by edge
06-02-2019 12:02 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
edge writes:

Dredge harangues us that the fossils don't tell us how life changed over time.


No, Dredge accepts the same fossil record as you do.

Here’s the problem for Darwinists: Fossils tells us nothing about the mechanism of macroevolution, and it cannot be demonstrated that microevolution leads to macroevolution (on the contrary, thousands of years of animal and plant breeding demonstrates that there are genetic limits to how far organisms can “evolve”) . So all you have left to “explain” the fossil record is blind faith (born of atheism) in Darwinian evolution. Unfortunately blind faith is not science.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1150 by edge, posted 06-02-2019 12:02 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1177 by edge, posted 06-04-2019 9:11 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1131
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1170 of 1249 (854008)
06-04-2019 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1151 by DrJones*
06-02-2019 12:10 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
DrJones writes:

ah that's sweet but you shouldn't waste your time flirting with me, i like women


Very sorry - I got the strong impression that you were gay - my bad.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1151 by DrJones*, posted 06-02-2019 12:10 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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