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Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1176
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1171 of 1258 (854009)
06-04-2019 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1126 by edge
05-31-2019 9:31 AM


Re: YEC vs OEC
edge writes:

Learn what?


You don't fool me - I know that, as a result of my teaching on this site, you are now seriously questioning your Darwinist beliefs and are thinking of converting to some form of creationism.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1126 by edge, posted 05-31-2019 9:31 AM edge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1176 by Theodoric, posted 06-04-2019 8:49 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4136
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 1172 of 1258 (854013)
06-04-2019 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1167 by Dredge
06-04-2019 2:23 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Sorry, but you haven’t told me anything useful in terms of a breeding program.

Is that what you're looking for? A fuckin breeding program!

Disingenuous fool.

Hey, but ok, I'll have a few minutes of fun.

To evolve amniotes to synapsids/sauropsids nature took millions of colonies of different species of amniotes, put them in a nice wet warm place and let chemistry work its majik. A few million years later the amniotes were still there but had evolved two separate forms.

How's that for a breeding program. Like teenagers you leave them alone and they fuck on their own. Don't need no stinkin' program.

Dog breeders have experimented with inbreeding simply to see what will happen and what weird mutations they can come up with.

So what? That doesn't mean what you think it means. We are quite familiar with this inbreeding disaster and how/why it forms. And you don't know dog breeders.

This fact contradicts your Darwinist fantasy that a dog can eventually be bred into a non-dog.

No, fool, it does not. Any such fantasy exists only in your tiny little head.

And of all my fantasies I don't recall Darwin being in any of them, though I've had some wide-ranging fantasies so I can't say for sure.

I understand that an atheist has no choice but to believe that evolution is responsible for the fossil record, despite the reality-denying absurdity of that position.

A streetcar named Desire jumps both ways. Sixty-four is interdependent on the relatedness of motivation, subcultures, and management.

Whiskey on the table is paved with good intentions. You make as much sense as the Do Nothing Button.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1167 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2019 2:23 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1182 by Dredge, posted 06-05-2019 2:14 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4136
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 1173 of 1258 (854014)
06-04-2019 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1168 by Dredge
06-04-2019 2:32 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
1. No, as I've pointed out many times, I'm not a YEC.

You're not just a YEC you're a yokel of a YEC.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1168 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2019 2:32 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 961
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 1174 of 1258 (854015)
06-04-2019 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1170 by Dredge
06-04-2019 2:42 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Interesting - an assumption that Dr Jones is a man.

Come on now Dredge - women can be doctors you know.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1170 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2019 2:42 AM Dredge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1178 by Theodoric, posted 06-04-2019 10:08 AM vimesey has responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2041
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1175 of 1258 (854020)
06-04-2019 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1167 by Dredge
06-04-2019 2:23 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Dredge writes:

This fact contradicts your Darwinist fantasy that a dog can eventually be bred into a non-dog

If a dog could eventually be bred into a non-dog it would completely falsify evolutionary theory as that is the opposite of what evolutionary theory predicts.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1167 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2019 2:23 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1186 by Dredge, posted 06-05-2019 2:59 AM Pressie has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6310
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 1176 of 1258 (854021)
06-04-2019 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1171 by Dredge
06-04-2019 2:59 AM


Re: YEC vs OEC
Trolling and preaching that is all a creationist ever does.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1171 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2019 2:59 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
edge
Member
Posts: 4606
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 1177 of 1258 (854022)
06-04-2019 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1169 by Dredge
06-04-2019 2:36 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
No, Dredge accepts the same fossil record as you do.

Just in case you were wondering about that whooshing sound, it was my point going over your head.

Here’s the problem for Darwinists: Fossils tells us nothing about the mechanism of macroevolution, ...

Yes, we understood you the first time.

You didn't read my post, did you?

... and it cannot be demonstrated that microevolution leads to macroevolution (on the contrary, thousands of years of animal and plant breeding demonstrates that there are genetic limits to how far organisms can “evolve”) . So all you have left to “explain” the fossil record is blind faith (born of atheism) in Darwinian evolution. Unfortunately blind faith is not science.

What is really unfortunate is that you are unable to comprehend the whole point of my post.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1169 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2019 2:36 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6310
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 1178 of 1258 (854023)
06-04-2019 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1174 by vimesey
06-04-2019 5:40 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
women can be doctors you know.

As my wife and niece both prove every day. My wife is an M.D., Family Medicine and my niece is a PhD, Public Health.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1174 by vimesey, posted 06-04-2019 5:40 AM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1179 by vimesey, posted 06-04-2019 10:21 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
vimesey
Member
Posts: 961
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 1179 of 1258 (854026)
06-04-2019 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1178 by Theodoric
06-04-2019 10:08 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Yep - we do spend a lot of time raking over the world's troubles on these pages, but it's good to remember we've come a long way, (even if there is still a long way to go).

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1178 by Theodoric, posted 06-04-2019 10:08 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1197 by Dredge, posted 06-07-2019 2:04 AM vimesey has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7921
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 1180 of 1258 (854055)
06-04-2019 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1167 by Dredge
06-04-2019 2:23 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Dredge writes:

Btw, you haven’t answered my question: If the THEORY of evolution is “true”, why don’t you call it the FACT of evolution?

You are demonstrating that you don't understand what theories or facts are.

quote:

Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered.
--Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory"
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/...gould_fact-and-theory.html

Sorry, but you haven’t told me anything useful in terms of a breeding program. If you have an amniote, for example, how do you breed it to evolve into a synapsid?

Synapsids are amniotes.

Dog breeders have experimented with inbreeding simply to see what will happen and what weird mutations they can come up with. In other words, they have used every trick in the book to change the morphology of dogs – and what they have found is, the further genetics are pushed the more harmful mutations arise, thus limiting how far breeding can go. This fact contradicts your Darwinist fantasy that a dog can eventually be bred into a non-dog.

The one trick they haven't tried is to allow dogs to breed in large populations over millions of years to get rid of the harmful mutations and accumulate much more genetic variation. Humans and chimps differ by 2% at the genetic level. Can you show me two dog breeds that differ by 2% at the genetic level?

You live in a dream world. Try and bred a dog into a non-dog and see what happens – you will end in the same genetic “dead-end” that thousands of years of dog breeding has – ie, a drastically less-diverse population riddled with harmful mutations. All you will end up “evolving” is sick, weak, unfit dogs!

All descendants of dogs will be dogs. What can change is the variety and number of dog species. If you don't understand this very simple concept, then you can't critique evolution.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1167 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2019 2:23 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1196 by Dredge, posted 06-07-2019 1:43 AM Taq has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6310
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 1181 of 1258 (854059)
06-04-2019 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1167 by Dredge
06-04-2019 2:23 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
If the THEORY of evolution is “true”, why don’t you call it the FACT of evolution?

As I said before science does not work in truths. The Theory of Evolution is the best explanation for the data we currently have. It could change if there were data that ran counter to it.

You obviously have no idea how science works. You know about gravity I assume. There is no FACT of gravity. Since there is not I assume you don't believe in gravity.

Scientific theories are not educated guesses. You are using the fallacy of equivocation.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Equivocation

Here is a quick primer on Theories and Laws. You might want to review to keep from looking so ridiculous in the future.

https://docs.google.com/...PxI0uOkXqAheJwHF7_ADOboNRXUI/edit

quote:
Theory: A theory is what one or more hypotheses become once they have been verified and accepted to be true. A theory is an explanation of a set of related observations or events based upon tested hypotheses and verified multiple times by detached groups of researchers...
Some scientific theories include the continental drift theory, the theory of relativity, the atomic theory, and the quantum theory. All of these theories have been tested and verified and are generally accepted by scientists beyond reasonable doubt. Yet scientists continue to tinker with the component hypotheses of each theory in an attempt to make them more elegant and concise, or to make them more all-encompassing. Theories can be tweaked, but they are seldom, if ever, entirely replaced.
A theory is developed only through the scientific method, meaning it is the final result of a series of rigorous processes. Note that theories do not become laws. Scientific laws must exist prior to the start of using the scientific method because, as stated earlier, laws are the foundation for all science.

One should learn a subject before trying to expound upon it.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1167 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2019 2:23 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1176
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1182 of 1258 (854136)
06-05-2019 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1172 by AZPaul3
06-04-2019 4:12 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
AZPaul3 writes:

Is that what you're looking for? A fuckin breeding program!

Yes - I asked you for a breeding program that will produce macroevolution. Believe it or not, macroevolution sort of needs organisms to breed in order for it to happen.

To evolve amniotes to synapsids/sauropsids nature took millions of colonies of different species of amniotes, put them in a nice wet warm place and let chemistry work its majik. A few million years later the amniotes were still there but had evolved two separate forms. How's that for a breeding program

Sorry, but your breeding program tells me nothing about how to breed a synapsid from an amniote.
If someone asked you how to breed a sausage dog from a wolf, for example, and you said "put them in a nice (warm) place and let chemistry work its majik", they would rightly conclude that you know ZILCH about dog breeding.

So - as I suspected - you actually have no idea how you would go about producing a synapsid from a amniote. So much for you claimed knowledge of macroevolution - you've just proven you have none! It seems that your so-called knowledge turns out to be nothing but blind faith - "Gee, I dunno ... evolution done it!"

We are quite familiar with this inbreeding disaster and how/why it forms.
.
... and why genetic disasters place a limit on how far the dog genome can be "stretched".

Despite the obvious genetic "dead ends" encountered by dog breeders, you still believe the deluded fantasy that dogs could eventually be breed into non-dogs.

I could ask you how you would go about breeding a non-dog from a dog, but you'd be as clueless about that as you are about breeding a synapsid from an amnoite.

Disingenuous fool.

Oh look, a petulant insult - the last resort of the clueless. Classy stuff.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1172 by AZPaul3, posted 06-04-2019 4:12 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1192 by AZPaul3, posted 06-05-2019 11:59 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 1193 by AZPaul3, posted 06-05-2019 1:08 PM Dredge has responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1176
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1183 of 1258 (854137)
06-05-2019 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1163 by Taq
06-03-2019 6:18 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Taq writes:

. The matching phylogenies at the morphological and genetic level tell us the how: evolutionary mechanisms. Phylogenies are the fingerprint of random mutations, selection, drift, speciation, and vertical inheritance

Ah, so if you know how macroevolution occurs, you shouldn't have any trouble telling me how you would go about breeding a bird from a reptile, for example ... or a non-fruit fly from a fruit fly. What about a double-cell organism from a single-cell organism? Go ahead, I'm all ears ...

that fingerprint is all over the distribution of characteristics in living and fossil species as well as the genomes of living species.

You stated in message 1162 that "genetic engineering can produce any pattern of similarities and differences" - I presume this includes the same pattern that evolution produces. So it's possible that, what looks to you like the "fingerprint" of evolution in the fossil record, could actually be the fingerprint of genetic engineering.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1163 by Taq, posted 06-03-2019 6:18 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1191 by Taq, posted 06-05-2019 11:28 AM Dredge has responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1176
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1184 of 1258 (854140)
06-05-2019 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1159 by edge
06-03-2019 10:50 AM


Re: YEC vs OEC
qs=edgeNo that doesn't answer my question. I asked why you defend a theory as the best scientific explanation when you don't believe it. That does not lend a whole lot of credence. In fact, it makes your argument a strawman.
I would just as soon argue that the theory of evolution is the best scientific theory because I DO believe that the evidence supports it. Arguably, that makes my theory more valid than yours [/qs]

Okay, let's simplify things - imagine that I decided to ditch my theory of aliens and like you, accepted Darwinism as the best scientific explanation for the fossil record. Although I accept Darwinism as the best scientific theory, I still wouldn't believe it, because
A. Accepting a scientific explanation as the best available at the time is not contingent on believing that explanation is the truth. For staters, I would be aware that the "best scientific explanation" today may not be the "best scientific explanation" tomorrow.
B. I believe that a certain non-scientific explanation for the fossil record is a better explanation than the scientific one
C. I believe the non-scientific explanation in B is the truth.

And I haven't even got into the lack of evidence for such alien intervention

With respect to evidence of aliens: "Lucy" - for example - might be the remains of one of the very aliens I'm talking about.

So this renders neither of your two theories as scientific and shows that you are just trolling this board ... You are playing games.

If you lack the intelligence and imagination and scientific aptitude and humility to accept my teachings, whose fault is that?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1159 by edge, posted 06-03-2019 10:50 AM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1188 by edge, posted 06-05-2019 7:44 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 1190 by RAZD, posted 06-05-2019 10:52 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 1194 by Taq, posted 06-05-2019 3:20 PM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1176
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1185 of 1258 (854141)
06-05-2019 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1157 by Tanypteryx
06-03-2019 1:27 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Tanypteryx writes:

Why do you think macroevolution is related to breeding?

Er ... because if animals don't breed, there will be no evolution at all, let alone macroevolution.

You don't seem to know anything about macroevolution.

NO ONE knows anything about macroevolution - including you. You haven't got a bloody clue how you would go about breeding a winged-insect from a non-winged-insect, for example ... you wouldn't even know where to start!

Tanypteryx: "We already know how macroevolution occurs". HA HA HA! What a joke!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1157 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-03-2019 1:27 AM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1189 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-05-2019 10:41 AM Dredge has responded

    
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