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Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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(1)
Message 1276 of 1362 (856722)
07-02-2019 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1275 by Taq
07-02-2019 11:22 AM


Do you realize that you can't address the examples of evolution being used in practical applications? Why is that?

Cognitive dissonance.

Enjoy


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Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 7 days)
Posts: 413
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 1277 of 1362 (856764)
07-02-2019 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1274 by Dredge
07-02-2019 12:33 AM


I've given you answers to your question. You seemed doubtful, so I expanded on those answers.

Is there something you're still not clear about?


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Dredge
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Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1278 of 1362 (856911)
07-04-2019 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1273 by Taq
07-01-2019 12:12 PM


Are you referring to this: “Our analyses indicate that disease mutations show definite patterns when examined from an evolutionary perspective. Human replacement mutations resulting in disease are overabundant at amino acid positions most conserved throughout the long-term history of metazoans.?

If so, how do you get from “amino acid positions” to the fossil record?


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Dredge
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Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1279 of 1362 (857020)
07-04-2019 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1275 by Taq
07-02-2019 11:22 AM


Do you realize that you can't address the examples of evolution being used in practical applications?

Do you realize that I didn’t ask you for “examples of evolution being used in practical applications”? I asked you for an example of how the Darwinian explanation for the history of life on earth has proven practically useful in applied science.

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Dredge
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Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1280 of 1362 (857021)
07-04-2019 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1277 by Sarah Bellum
07-02-2019 5:22 PM


I've given you answers to your question. You seemed doubtful, so I expanded on those answers.
Is there something you're still not clear about?

It’s clear that you are confused about what I asked for … which was not practical uses for “evolution” in applied science. I know there are practical uses for "evolution" in applied science.
I asked for an example of how the Darwinian explanation of the history of life has proven practically useful in applied science. For example, if you can think of any practical use of medical science that requires the “information” that humans and chimps share a common ancestor, that would be a start.


This message is a reply to:
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 Message 1282 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2019 6:43 AM Dredge has responded
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 Message 1284 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-05-2019 10:07 PM Dredge has responded

  
Pressie
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Posts: 2081
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 1281 of 1362 (857044)
07-05-2019 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1280 by Dredge
07-04-2019 11:15 PM


Dredge writes:

I asked for an example of how the Darwinian explanation...

I'm not too sure what you mean. The world of science has moved on since 1859. After all, a "Darwinian explanation" means natural selection.

In evolutionary theory, we mean things like natural selection, genetic variation, gene flow, gene capture, sexual selection, genetic drift, genetic hitchiking, neutral theory, etc.

So, what are you asking?

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


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Tangle
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Posts: 7123
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 1282 of 1362 (857048)
07-05-2019 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1280 by Dredge
07-04-2019 11:15 PM


Dredge writes:

For example, if you can think of any practical use of medical science that requires the “information” that humans and chimps share a common ancestor, that would be a start.

AIDS vaccine development using monkeys - our closest genetic relative.

Now what?


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Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
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Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 7 days)
Posts: 413
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 1283 of 1362 (857077)
07-05-2019 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1280 by Dredge
07-04-2019 11:15 PM


I would have to guess at that. Perhaps the fact that we study primates to learn about living creatures, anatomy, the immune system and so forth requires the knowledge of the genetic link? After all, if we are not related we must treat the data from primate studies differently than we do. It's not my area of expertise. In any case, it's all part of a whole, so trying to work with only some of the science while dismissing fundamental principles would lead to the same sort of problems as, for example, trying to use modern chemistry while still holding in your mind the idea that there are only four elements.

Lets not forget, though, that as with the knowledge of whether or not there is water ice on the Moon, or the knowledge of whether or not Herod was the ruler of Palestine at the time Jesus supposedly was born, some knowledge will not put food on the table, find your lost keys or win the hand of the lover you seek. It's still knowledge, even so.


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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1576
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1284 of 1362 (857131)
07-05-2019 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1280 by Dredge
07-04-2019 11:15 PM


"Darwinian" means what?
quote:

I asked for an example of how the Darwinian explanation of the history of life has proven practically useful in applied science.

"Darwinian"?

Survival of the fittest?

Genetic isolation? (the "genetic" part might be neo-Darwinian)

Or the common ancestry part?

You next line:

quote:

For example, if you can think of any practical use of medical science that requires the “information” that humans and chimps share a common ancestor, that would be a start.


Humans of common ancestry share common diseases.

Ancestry tells us a lot about who gets what disease.

I was trying to find some information (via google) about certain people of India sharing a genetic-predisposition toward certain diseases with Europeans .

This might not be the best link, but here is something:

quote:

India's genes uncovered

Adam Rutherford

Genetic exploration of the subcontinent has been slow to get going – but the latest findings offer some amazing insights

Nowhere is the bewildering diversity of the people of India more apparent than on the Rupee: the value of each banknote is spelt out in 17 languages.

Tracing the origins of this type of diversity has only recently been opened up past the historical. Nowadays, genome analysis has emerged to complement history in understanding our origins: by looking at the individual differences in the genetic code in individuals, we can identify how closely populations and families are related, and infer the migration and mating that brought us into the modern age. Strangely, genetic analysis of the billion strong population of the subcontinent has been slow to kick off. But a new study has revealed that despite the population of India being incredibly diverse, it is in fact derived from just two distinct ancient populations. One of these, from the north, were distant cousins of Europeans and Middle Easterners, whereas those from the south were as different from the northerners as they were from the Chinese.

These distinctions are not visible now, but this ancestry is buried deep in the Indian genome. Almost all sampled showed a blend of these two ancestral groups, but in differing proportions.

....

In a population where there's a range of hair colour, for example, ginger genes might eventually blend in and be lost through breeding with non-redheads. But if a ginger family became isolated (literally or for social reasons) from the rest of the population and could therefore only breed within, then that whole population would be predominantly ginger. In evolutionary terms we call this a "founder event". And it appears that India's genetic spread is a result of many founder events at times during the last 3000 years: small pockets of populations that were endogamous: that is, they didn't breed much beyond their group. I don't expect many of them were ginger though.

There are a number of interesting implications for this. The first is that the consequence of endogamy revealed by this genetic map of a billion people is that we should expect to see a higher frequency of recessive genetic diseases, in the same way that we observe in Ashkenazi Jews or the Finns. Indian scientists are aware of disorders within their populations that rely on a unique genetic heritage, and have attributed it to marriage to close relatives, which is relatively common in the south. But the roots of these diseases may be deeper than cousins marrying.

There's a second socio-political inference. The caste system has existed in India for centuries, and although great efforts have been made to reduce its divisive nature (caste-based discrimination is outlawed under the constitution), it remains active and controversial. It has been suggested that caste was to some degree an invention of (or at least galvanised by) the British during colonialism. What the genetics now says is that this endogamy within castes has kept social groups relatively separate for thousands of years, and hence defined India's population in genetic terms. Reich commented that "There are populations that have lived in the same town and same village for thousands of years without exchanging genes." On top of this, this and other studies have shown a higher proportion of high caste members share genetic traits with those from the northern ancestral group. This may yet prove to be controversial if it can be spun to defend a rigid caste structure.

https://www.theguardian.com/.../india-genetics-genes-science


This was about human groups.

But what about animals thrown into the mix of actual "human ancestors"?

There does seem to be a link between macro-evolutionary events and diseases.

Right?


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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1576
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1285 of 1362 (857132)
07-05-2019 10:19 PM


I might have found a site to help in this discussion
https://evolution.berkeley.edu/...ibrary/news/101101_malaria

quote:

Spreading disease on evolutionary timescales
November 2010

If you are trying to stay healthy this cold and flu season, you may find yourself washing your hands frequently and avoiding crowded places like schools and airports. That's because most infectious diseases that we are familiar with are passed from human to human — and the more human germs you come into contact with, the more likely you are to have one make its home in your body. However, on evolutionary timescales, pathogens don't necessarily respect species boundaries. Biologists have discovered more and more cases in which diseases have passed from another species to humans. And, as you might expect, the more closely related the other species are to us, the easier it seems to be for the pathogen to make this jump. The most recently discovered case of disease swapping among species involves the deadliest strain of malaria, Plasmodium falciparum, which causes more than a million deaths each year.
Where's the evolution?

Up until two years ago, biologists thought that this parasite had been plaguing us since the dawn of human history. P. falciparum's closest known relative was a species of malaria that infects chimpanzees, so it only made sense to hypothesize that the common ancestor of these parasitic species infected the common ancestor of humans and chimps. When our own lineage split from that of the chimps around six million years ago, each took a population of malaria parasites with them and these parasites evolved into separate species along with their hosts ... or at least that's what scientists thought, up until genetic testing uncovered previously unknown strains of malaria infecting other great apes.


Plasmodium falciparum (human malaria) and Plasmodium reichenowi (chimp malaria) are shown - on the site - on a branching family tree graphic, with a split in the human-chimp lineage causing a malaria split.


Replies to this message:
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1286 of 1362 (857134)
07-05-2019 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1281 by Pressie
07-05-2019 6:24 AM


You don't understand the Darwinian theories of common descent and descent with modification?

If not, try neo-Darwinian theory.


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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1576
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1287 of 1362 (857135)
07-05-2019 10:53 PM


Is this study to your point (few useful "success" stories?) Dredge?
PDF

https://animalstudiesrepository.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?r...=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1027&context=acwp_lab

quote:

Lessons from Chimpanzee-based Research on Human
Disease: The Implications of Genetic Differences

Jarrod Bailey

New England Anti-Vivisection Society (NEAVS), Boston, USA and British Union for the Abolition of
Vivisection (BUAV), London, UK

Summary — Assertions that the use of chimpanzees to investigate human diseases is valid scientifically are
frequently based on a reported 98–99% genetic similarity between the species. Critical analyses of the relevance of chimpanzee studies to human biology, however, indicate that this genetic similarity does not
result in sufficient physiological similarity for the chimpanzee to constitute a good model for research, and
furthermore, that chimpanzee data do not translate well to progress in clinical practice for humans.
Leading examples include the minimal citations of chimpanzee research that is relevant to human medicine, the highly different pathology of HIV/AIDS and hepatitis C virus infection in the two species, the lack
of correlation in the efficacy of vaccines and treatments between chimpanzees and humans, and the fact
that chimpanzees are not useful for research on human cancer. The major molecular differences underlying these inter-species phenotypic disparities have been revealed by comparative genomics and molecular
biology — there are key differences in all aspects of gene expression and protein function, from chromosome and chromatin structure to post-translational modification. The collective effects of these differences are striking, extensive and widespread, and they show that the superficial similarity between human and chimpanzee genetic sequences is of little consequence for biomedical research. The extrapolation of biomedical data from the chimpanzee to the human is therefore highly unreliable, and the use of the chimpanzee must be considered of little value, particularly given the breadth and potential of alternative methods of enquiry that are currently available to science.


I suppose you feel that all research would happen regardless of understanding of the past.

So even successful research won't mean a whole lot, to you, correct?


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 1288 of 1362 (857176)
07-06-2019 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1026 by Dredge
05-21-2019 9:48 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
quote:
Your Darwinist explanation is merely one possible explanation ... which is supported by fossil evidence, but isn't CONFIRMED by fossil evidence.

That is how science works, really. When the evidence supports the hypothesis you tentatively accept it.

Science is tentative after all.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 1289 of 1362 (857178)
07-06-2019 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1053 by Tanypteryx
05-22-2019 12:26 PM


Re: does a species from one genus evolve into a species from another genus ... yes
quote:
I don't know what puff is

To 'run out of puff' is to be so exhausted you have to stop.

I tried to run all the way home but I ran out of puff half way.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1053 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-22-2019 12:26 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(4)
Message 1290 of 1362 (857209)
07-06-2019 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1197 by Dredge
06-07-2019 2:04 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
quote:
How do you slowly but surely destroy a civilization? Simple - you inject it with the insanity-inducing, life-destroying poison of feminism. The subsequent low-birth rates are guaranteed to eventually bring down even the most advanced civilizations. But really, a civilization that's too stupid to even reproduce in sufficient numbers doesn't deserve to survive.

My incel sense is tingling.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1197 by Dredge, posted 06-07-2019 2:04 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
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