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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
Posts: 4043
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004

Message 51 of 378 (844886)
12-07-2018 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
12-07-2018 12:14 PM

Re: Subjectivist heresies that are undermining Christianity
Faith writes:

All of these listed object to making the Bible the foundation of their belief...

I do object to making the Bible the foundation of my belief - the Bible is too... immature... for me.
But I don't object to making the Bible the foundation of others' beliefs. In fact, I support and endorse that those who find the Bible to be... profoundly signficant... should definitely make the Bible the foundation of their beliefs.

His focus seems to have been mostly on the Charismatic Movement which made personal experience more important than the Bible, which is basically what all these subjectivist movements have in common. Schaeffer identified the watershed between true believers and heretics as those for whom the Bible is foundational and those for whom it isn't, and Glover follows the same way of dividing the orthodox from the heresies.

I can understand Glover's and Schaeffer's objection to focusing on personal experience.

When you focus on personal experience instead of orthodox teachings, you no longer have any excuse of "trying to understand the mysteries of the Lord" or "attempting to find what Christ really wants." All you have is personal responsibility. Lots and lots of personal responsibility and no excuses of any kind. Most people do try to shy away from such things, it's easier that way.

Glover's book is a strong argument for traditional Bible-believing Christianity against all this subjectivism, which he sees as the cause of the weakness of the Church these days, due partly to God's judgment on us for embracing these heresies and abandoning His word. I recommend the book to all you subjectivists.

It's not really much of an argument at all against what you're calling "subjectivism."
You can't say "God doesn't want you to do this!" to someone who doesn't believe in God... it's not an argument of any sort.

It's like attempting to argue that lollipops are the best candy to an engineer who needs to design a bridge so that it doesn't fall apart and kill anyone.
You may very well be right that lollipops are great... but it's irrelevant to anyone who has more important goals to strive for.

You are right about it causing a weakness of the Church though... and that's really what it seems to be more about. Something to rally the all-ready-believing troops.

"Subjectivism" may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 12:14 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 12:56 PM Stile has responded

Posts: 4043
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004

Message 61 of 378 (844907)
12-07-2018 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
12-07-2018 12:56 PM

Re: Subjectivist heresies that are undermining Christianity
Faith writes:

I guess you have no idea whatever how bizarrely wrongheaded this notion is.

Of course not. That's why I follow it.

Feel free to explain why you think personal responsibility is bizarrely wrongheaded or anything else, though.
If it's reasonable, I'll change my position to something better. Always looking to get better!

Of course, if you can't explain it, or provide any reasonable critique... well... then it will seem like every other discussion with anyone holding fingers in their ears.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 12:56 PM Faith has not yet responded

Posts: 4043
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004

Message 163 of 378 (845834)
12-21-2018 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Faith
12-21-2018 11:44 AM

Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Faith writes:

Salvation is the foundation of the Christian life. Without it there is no Christian life at all. Without salvation there is no Holy Spirit, without the Holy Spirit there is no Christian love and no real knowledge of Christ Himself.

This seems a strange notion to hold.

What if absolute proof came about tomorrow - showing that God did not exist and the Bible is just wrong and the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ and all if it was simply made up.

Would you no longer treat others the way you want to be treated?

What if GDR would still treat others the way GDR wants to be treated anyway?
What if an atheist would still treat others the way that atheist wants to be treated anyway?

Does that make GDR and/or the atheist stronger in their faith to follow Jesus' message than you are?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 12-21-2018 11:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 12-21-2018 2:48 PM Stile has responded

Posts: 4043
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004

Message 167 of 378 (845881)
12-21-2018 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Phat
12-21-2018 2:48 PM

Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Phat writes:

What if it were true? Would you do anything different than you do now?

Absolutely I would do some things differently.
And others... well, I would like to say "not so much..." but it is hard to guess at how such knowledge would make me act. Perhaps a great deal of things would change.

For one, I would have to very quickly adjust my thread: I Know That God Does Not Exist
With the new information that thread would be entirely incorrect and in need of an update.

Would you accept that you were a sinner and ask God into your heart? Or would you simply say "that's cool too!"

This would depend on exactly which sort of God is shown to exist.

Is it the God who committed genocide in the story of Noah? - I would have a great deal of reservations before accepting such a being into my heart. But, I still wouldn't be closed off - I'd just have a lot of questions that would require clarification. Some paths would lead me to accepting this God, others would lead me to rejecting Him.
Is it a God who puts love above all else? - I would be greatly excited to have such a God in my heart, if He would have me.

If you found absolute proof that the way you were living now would send you to a lake of fire sometime in the future, would you do what you needed to do to change course or would you challenge the authority of the law that sent you there?

This is a loaded question.

I will answer with (hopefully) clear examples:

One of the "ways I live now" is that I do what I can to take care of my wife. She's a wonderful girl who has a mental disability (PTSD from being badly abused when she was younger) and a variety of physical ailments (nothing life-threatening, but certainly a few that are... more than most have to deal with.)

If one of the things I "need to do to change course" is that I must leave my wife - then no, I would stay with my wife and accept my fate in the lake of fire. Laughing the entire time at the fool in charge that setup such a wicked system.

Example #2:

The sorts of things I "need to change course on" in order to avoid the lake of fire include themes such as:
-going to church often (at least once a week - preferably more)
-giving more to the poor and helping others more than I'm doing now (my current excuse is that I do give to the poor, but what I don't give I use to help myself and my wife live a comfortable life. Not an exaggerated life, but a comfortable one.) However, I would be willing to hurt my wife "just a bit more" in order to give "just a bit more to the poor" if my eternity was threatened with a lake of fire. Without such a threat, I see no reason to hurt my wife.

I would do such things in order to avoid a lake of fire.

But, really, they would be done "in order to avoid a lake of fire." Not out of any increase of personal charity or feelings of love for others. I'm not sure if that's really a good thing or not.

There are certain things I'm willing to do in order to avoid certain punishments, for sure.
However, they would not make me want to admit such a God into my heart very much.

Such things do not seem to come from a source of love. But more of a source of vanity.

One can be a part of the community and help those around them without having to "go to church."
One can give what they are able to charity without hurting those they have responsibilities towards.
Forcing people by threat in order to ensure they meet some strange level of acceptability seems - immature, rather than reasonable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 12-21-2018 2:48 PM Phat has not yet responded

Posts: 4043
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004

Message 374 of 378 (846972)
01-14-2019 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 358 by ringo
01-12-2019 11:12 AM

Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
ringo writes:

In fact, it's the evidence of Jesus' wounds that argues against resurrection. If He was the same Jesus with the same wounds, He didn't die and could not be resurrected. If the wounds were faked, there's no reason to think he was the same Jesus. If it really was the same Jesus but in a different body, the wounds are meaningless.


The same sort of "issues" that cause problems with almost all science fiction novels.
Once you "make up" a portion of reality... there's usually consistency issues that crop up here and there.

This seems to be a similar "consistency issue" that surrounds the story of the resurrection.
Which would be an indication that the story is as made-up as other science fiction novels with similar consistency problems.

Reality doesn't have to worry about consistency issues.
Like Judge Judy always said - you don't have to remember anything if you tell the truth. And if you lie, I'll catch it - because I'm smarter than you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by ringo, posted 01-12-2019 11:12 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

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