Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 63 (9045 total)
345 online now:
PaulK (1 member, 344 visitors)
Newest Member: Dade
Post Volume: Total: 887,360 Year: 5,006/14,102 Month: 604/707 Week: 2/157 Day: 2/22 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
ringo
Member
Posts: 19237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 14 of 378 (844417)
11-29-2018 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
11-29-2018 12:16 AM


Re: Reply To Tangle
Phat writes:

1) God is the initial Creator of all things seen and unseen.


I've never understood why believers conflate the builder with the landlord.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 11-29-2018 12:16 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 11-29-2018 1:45 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 19 of 378 (844454)
11-30-2018 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
11-29-2018 1:45 PM


Re: The Builder and the Landlord.
Phat writes:

What do you mean? I guess I don't understand your question---
The earth is the Lords but the world belongs to the devil.


No, it has nothing to do with gods and devils. I'm wondering why people conflate the builder with the landlord. In real life, the builder builds and then moves on to the next project. He doesn't stick around to "rule" what he built. So why would you think that the Creator and the God that you pray to are the same entity?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 11-29-2018 1:45 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 11:34 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 21 of 378 (844461)
11-30-2018 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
11-30-2018 11:34 AM


Re: The Builder and the Landlord.
Phat writes:

I suppose because monotheism is simpler and more plausible.


How is it "more plausible" when it goes against what we know in the real world?

Phat writes:

Why do you always use the word "rule"?


Why not?
quote:
Psalm 103:19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.

Phat writes:

Common sense tells me that often the stories don't make sense for a supposedly all wise and logical Deity to consider.


Why are you assuming an all-wise and logical Deity in the first place?

Phat writes:

Open Theism seems palatable to me because it allows both our free wills and also allows Gods involvement.


So it's just another copout to escape the obvious nonsense of conventional theology.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 11:34 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 11:58 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 23 of 378 (844466)
11-30-2018 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
11-30-2018 11:58 AM


Re: The Builder and the Landlord.
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Why are you assuming an all-wise and logical Deity in the first place?


Because no other would qualify worthy of worship or even respect.

Well, worshiping God is a nonsensical concept to begin with. How petty is He that He needs or wants to be worshiped?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 11:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 4:16 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 27 of 378 (844516)
12-01-2018 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
11-30-2018 4:16 PM


Re: The Builder and the Landlord.
Phat writes:

I dont think its so much worship as it is respect and obedience.


It can't be obedience. You claim that we're supposed to use our free will.

Phat writes:

If the commander has more experience than the foot soldier, the soldier would do well to listen.


That would make sense if the commander was anywhere near the battlefield. But a commander sitting in the Pentagon often messes things up for the soldier on the actual battlefield who has experience of that particular battlefield.

Phat writes:

We humans are quite early in our development and would need a Being or Deity with intergalactic wisdom and experience...


Clearly not. People who don't follow your religion - or any religion at all - get along just fine with no need for your god.

Phat writes:

---but belief in God is a rational belief in a superior Being that wants to help us grow.


How can there be a rational belief in something that has no evidence to support it? What good is reason unless it is grounded in reality?

Phat writes:

About the OT God---if Open Theism is a reality, such a God would even then have allowed its warrior tribal people to do their thing in regards to survival of the culture they lived in. Granted such a Deity could well be viewed as cruel---much like today's arguments that if God exists, why such a messed up world?


So your Open Deity has no effect on the world. Then what's the point of His existence?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 4:16 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 12-01-2018 3:51 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 35 of 378 (844587)
12-02-2018 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
12-01-2018 3:51 PM


Re: The Builder and the Landlord.
Phat writes:

How about attempting to understand Him?


Believers are the first ones to tell us we can't understand Him - mysterious ways and all that.

Phat writes:

And thus they have no business commenting on this topic if they can't accept the hypothetical.


It seems to be more about forcing them to accept YOUR hypothetical and not allowing any questions about it.

Phat writes:

So your argument has to be that belief is not rational.


Of course it isn't. Why are you guys so sensitive about being irrational? My choice of ice cream isn't rational; I don't feel any need to pretend that it is.

Phat writes:

Is the hypothetical God with omniscience and foreknowledge rational?


Back to your first question. His "mysterious ways" are not rational by our standards. That's why you use the mysterious ways copout in the first place.

Phat writes:

Would an open theistic God be any better?


It seems to me that open theism is just a new name for the same old copout.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 12-01-2018 3:51 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 12-02-2018 4:51 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 37 of 378 (844611)
12-02-2018 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
12-02-2018 4:51 PM


Re: The Builder and the Landlord.
Phat writes:

OK WHO is "us"? Lets be specific. And if in fact non believers have a different thought process than believers, how does it matter?


It has nothing to do with different thought processes. Believers tell EVERYBODY that God works in mysterious ways. That's their excuse for anything they can't explain - i.e. anything that doesn't make sense.

Phat writes:

I would argue that at best, you know no more than we do.


Again, it has nothing to do with who knows more. I'm talking about what believers think they know and the excuses they make for not knowing.

Phat writes:

You hang your hat on evidence but would be flying in the dark if there were no evidence...since your preassumptions serve as your radar.


For science-minded people, assumptions are based on evidence. Real knowledge is a web of inter-connected strands, each of which can be traced back to evidence. It is not an Indian rope trick.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 12-02-2018 4:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 48 of 378 (844881)
12-07-2018 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Tangle
12-07-2018 12:04 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Tangle writes:

Luckily. the fundamentalist idiots have finally been outvoted.


Let's not be too optimistic about the "finally".

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2018 12:04 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 57 of 378 (844894)
12-07-2018 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
12-07-2018 1:00 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Faith writes:

Let me know when you're approaching fifty million which was the tally of Bible Christians killed by Rome over six centuries.


Argumentum ad body-countum.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 1:00 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 92 of 378 (845149)
12-12-2018 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
12-12-2018 11:36 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Faith writes:

Only a morally confused person totally ignorant of truth and reality would reduce justice to murder.


That's what people are telling you: the murders ordered by God in the Old Testament were not justice. Only a morally confused person would say they were. And only a morally confused God would order murder in the name of justice.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 12-12-2018 11:36 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 118 of 378 (845324)
12-14-2018 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
12-13-2018 1:57 PM


Re: All The News That Is Fit To Print
Phat writes:

Not to mention that only the scribes of the victorious people had any input into the written record.


Not true. For example, there is little historical support for the conquest of Canaan. The Israelites made up a fictional war which they won. No war, no victors.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 1:57 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 119 of 378 (845326)
12-14-2018 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
12-14-2018 3:42 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Phat writes:

In my opinion, God would have had no need to order anything. He could have simply done it Himself.


That's your "free will" thing shooting you in the foot. What would the Israelites "learn" if God defeated all of their enemies for them? What did they learn by committing their own genocides?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 3:42 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 120 of 378 (845330)
12-14-2018 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
12-14-2018 6:28 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Phat writes:

In addition, the text clearly does not suggest that God Himself is speaking.


Same thing when the New Testament talks about Jesus. Why do you dismiss what Moses supposedly made up and then swallow hook, line and sinker what Matthew, Mark, Luke and John claim were "eyewitness" accounts?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 6:28 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 4:57 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 123 of 378 (845386)
12-15-2018 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
12-14-2018 4:57 PM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Phat writes:

I believe that the Torah was inspired.


Then why do you dismiss it?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 4:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 12-15-2018 11:23 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 126 of 378 (845390)
12-15-2018 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Phat
12-15-2018 11:23 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Phat writes:

... you hold our feet to the fire and read every part of the words in the Bible literally as if all of them applied for us today.


I certainly do not. I'm asking why YOU take some parts of it literally - e.g. the death and resurrection of Jesus - and throw away the parts you don't like - e.g. God's genocides.

Phat writes:

All of the mail is for us, yet not all of it is specifically addressed to us.


That sentence is nonsensical. How can it be for you but not for you?

Phat writes:

But if you believe that God is living today, you will more easily see that this was an event that happened 3500 or more years ago and that the God of the book at that moment in time may well have something different to say to us now.


The same applies to Jesus, 2000 years ago. He might well have something different to say to us now. By your logic, He might very well be wearing a Make America Great Again hat when He returns and telling you to sell everything you have to build a wall on the border.

Phat writes:

... God does not only speak through the words in a book concerning His admonitions to people thousands of years ago. Yes, He "does not change" but surely He has more to say than what the book claims He said.


Again, the same applies to Jesus.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 12-15-2018 11:23 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 12-15-2018 3:37 PM ringo has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021